Business Success Is Believing That Growing 10x Is Easier Than 2x
When asked if they think they’re able to 10x their current income, most entrepreneurs aren’t confident that they can. But when presented with a different way to think about it, it becomes clear that it’s actually easier to go 10x than it is to go 2x. In this episode, business coaches Dan Sullivan and Shannon Waller explain how to change your thinking so you’re ready to 10x your company’s income.
Here's some of what you'll learn in this episode:
- The mindset shift that happens when you realize you’ve gone 10x before.
- Insights you can gain from your previous jumps in income.
- Why your team members might try to prevent change at the company.
- How Strategic Coach® has gone 10x more than once.
- Why people have to make things up to scare themselves nowadays.
- The difference between “status entrepreneurs” and “growth entrepreneurs.”
Show Notes:
- Whenever someone goes 10x, they’ve gotten rid of a lot of activities they’d been doing.
- Going 10x means hiring people to do activities they’re great at.
- Growing your income means going after bigger and bigger check writers.
- Entrepreneurs should be using technology to expand the power of their teamwork.
- Growing your income might involve new collaborations with individuals outside of your company.
- You make up the future, but you don’t make up your past.
- The first time you go 10x, what you did couldn’t be predicted. The second time, you have a pattern to follow.
- Most people want a bigger result without having to change themselves or what they’re doing.
- 10x is multidimensional thinking, while 2x is linear thinking.
- How other people went 10x is meaningless information because it’s not the way you did it.
- You won’t go 10x unless doing so will result in greater freedom.
- A 10x quantitative jump is meaningless unless it’s also a 10x qualitative jump.
- Entrepreneurial growth calls for constant transformation and change.
Resources:
The 10x Mind Expander by Dan Sullivan
The Gap And The Gain by Dan Sullivan and Ben Hardy
Article: “The 4 Freedoms That Motivate Successful Entrepreneurs”
Episode Transcript:
Shannon Waller: Hi. Shannon Waller here, and welcome to Inside Strategic Coach with Dan Sullivan. Dan, we are really excited because the newest big book is coming out, one written with Dr. Benjamin Hardy, which is called 10x Is Easier Than 2x, which is such an interesting mind-shifting way of thinking about future and thinking about growth. So, let's do a little dive in. We're excited about it. The stories are incredible. The book is amazing. So, let's talk about 10x Is Easier Than 2x. How can that possibly be true?
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, well first of all, the book title is just the latest messaging of something that we started in Strategic Coach in the 1990s, 1994, 1995, which was called the 10x Mind Expander. The moment I explain it to most people, they kind of get this fairly quickly. And the best way to do that is, write your today's income down. And what I want you to do is to go back in your history and identify where it was when you were one-tenth of where you are today. Let's just use straight income, not anything that requires tax advice. So, just using Coach as an example, we're very, very close to 40 million, so I'll just use 40 million. So, we go back in history, and it's the early beyond 2000 when we were 4 million. So, in a period about 18 years, we've gone from 4 million as a company to 40 million. Okay.
And with really successful entrepreneurs, you can go back another one-tenth from when we were our company, 4 million, you can go back to when we were 400,000 and it was 1990, I can remember. So, we went from 400,000 to 4 million in probably about 10 or 12 years, and we've gone another 10x in about 17 or 18 years. Okay. And people say, “Oh, that's right.” And I said, “Now I just want you to take the first one-tenth and say five key breakthroughs that happened that take you from when you were one 10th of where you are right now. I want you to identify five key factors that let you grow 10x, because you've already had the experience of growing 10x. I just want to show you that you already know a lot about how to do this, but it may be the first time that you've actually identified.” And it always comes out the same. That is, they radically changed what they were doing on a day by day basis. In other words, there were a lot of activities that they just stopped doing and more and more they just narrowed it down to a few activities that they were already good at and they just got rid of a lot of the stuff that they weren't any good at. And in order to do that, what they did is they hired other people to do that. So, they grew the team around them. They may have gotten to the first level on their own with maybe a secretary, but to jump another 10x, they had to create a team where a lot of the activities that they were okay with went to people who were actually really good at it and they could do it all day.
Shannon Waller: Hi. Shannon Waller here, and welcome to Inside Strategic Coach with Dan Sullivan. Dan, we are really excited because the newest big book is coming out, one written with Dr. Benjamin Hardy, which is called 10x Is Easier Than 2x, which is such an interesting mind-shifting way of thinking about future and thinking about growth. So, let's do a little dive in. We're excited about it. The stories are incredible. The book is amazing. So, let's talk about 10x Is Easier Than 2x. How can that possibly be true?
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, well first of all, the book title is just the latest messaging of something that we started in Strategic Coach in the 1990s, 1994, 1995, which was called the 10x Mind Expander. The moment I explain it to most people, they kind of get this fairly quickly. And the best way to do that is, write your today's income down. And what I want you to do is to go back in your history and identify where it was when you were one-tenth of where you are today. Let's just use straight income, not anything that requires tax advice. So, just using Coach as an example, we're very, very close to 40 million, so I'll just use 40 million. So, we go back in history, and it's the early beyond 2000 when we were 4 million. So, in a period about 18 years, we've gone from 4 million as a company to 40 million. Okay.
And with really successful entrepreneurs, you can go back another one-tenth from when we were our company, 4 million, you can go back to when we were 400,000 and it was 1990, I can remember. So, we went from 400,000 to 4 million in probably about 10 or 12 years, and we've gone another 10x in about 17 or 18 years. Okay. And people say, “Oh, that's right.” And I said, “Now I just want you to take the first one-tenth and say five key breakthroughs that happened that take you from when you were one 10th of where you are right now. I want you to identify five key factors that let you grow 10x, because you've already had the experience of growing 10x. I just want to show you that you already know a lot about how to do this, but it may be the first time that you've actually identified.” And it always comes out the same. That is, they radically changed what they were doing on a day by day basis. In other words, there were a lot of activities that they just stopped doing and more and more they just narrowed it down to a few activities that they were already good at and they just got rid of a lot of the stuff that they weren't any good at. And in order to do that, what they did is they hired other people to do that. So, they grew the team around them. They may have gotten to the first level on their own with maybe a secretary, but to jump another 10x, they had to create a team where a lot of the activities that they were okay with went to people who were actually really good at it and they could do it all day.
And the entrepreneur just realized that what I'm really good at is solving problems. So, I spend a lot more time solving problems. And then the other thing is I'm really good at interacting with customers about what their problems are. And so, then I also changed who it was in the marketplace that I was. I went for bigger and bigger check writers. And the other thing is, we started to gain the use of a lot of technology, which made predictable activities a lot easier and faster and cheaper. And so the technology extended the power of our teamwork. And the other thing is I started hanging out with people who were also growing like this. Then there were a lot of people that I left behind, and that would be both in my business life and my personal life. There were people who I just knew them out of habit. But they had stopped growing and I wanted to grow.
So, they can fill in all the forms as I go through the questions and I said, “Now here's the thing. You now know that you've already done 10x. And not only that, but you're pretty clear how you did it last time. You've probably done it more than once. You've gone 10x twice. So the advantage is that you have a history of going 10x and you're more comfortable and you're more confident. And right off the bat, basically what has to change to go 10x higher?” So, for us to go to 400 million as a company, we know we have to have all of our people decreasing the amount of activity that they're doing and stop doing anything they're not good at. And then bringing on new team members who are really great. And not only inside team members, but outside team members, collaborators out in the world. And more and more just go for where the money is and where the big check writers are and more and more become a great problem solver for the people who write the biggest checks.
And not only that, but technology is on an exponential growth path, and we're going to keep getting the multiplying benefit of new technology, better people, and there's going to be bigger and bigger check writers that we can be valuable to in the marketplace. And our reputation's going to spread, and we're going to have access to communication networks and reach. And we know that because that's what happened last time and that's what happened the time before.
So, that's the basic logic. You don't talk about the future at all because people get freaked out about the future. And I get freaked out about the future before because I'm just making it up. But I'm not making up my past and I already proved to myself. And the final question in this, Shannon, is if you go back now with the knowledge you've acquired in going from one-tenth to where you are today, go back to where you were that day and none of what you did could have been predicted. But this time what you would do to go 10x more can be predicted because it's going to follow the same pattern that you've already mastered.
Shannon Waller: That is so powerful, Dan, because we've already done it and I've been in workshops, people go, Whoa, I just didn't even realize.” It's another form of the Gain as opposed the Gap, which is measuring where did I come from? And through this 10x context is really interesting.
Dan Sullivan: Got a new book idea I want to jot it down.
Shannon Waller: Oh, there you go.
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, this is part of the podcast.
Shannon Waller: It's all good.
Dan Sullivan: You want the book title?
Shannon Waller: What is it?
Dan Sullivan: Stop Scaring Yourself With the Future.
Shannon Waller: Ooh, love that one.
Dan Sullivan: I think life is so safe and secure for most people that they're really missing what used to scare human beings all the time. So-
Shannon Waller: Right. We're making it up.
Dan Sullivan: In the old days, you didn't have to make up things to be scared about things. But more and more in today, we have to make up things to scare ourselves because so much is taken care of.
Shannon Waller: I cannot wait to have that conversation because I have some thoughts about that, too. I totally agree. So Dan, just getting back to 10x Is Easier Than 2x, so that's how to think 10x and reflecting back on the fact you've already done it and what are the key factors that had you do that. All of a sudden you've got this suite of things that you can employ to go your next 10x. But how is it easier than 2x? Let's dive into that for a moment because a lot of people think if they doubled, that would be a huge win. That would be massive progress. But you're taking it to a whole other level.
Dan Sullivan: Well, let's use the same logic because 2x is that you go back to when you were half as big as you are right now, and it's not a very interesting... You went half and you said, so how do we go double now? And you say, nothing really different has to happen. Because most people say, how can I get a bigger result without me having to change myself or change what we're doing? And the first thing they think of, I have to fire somebody, I have to fire somebody.
And it's usually their response to going double is it's like moving the furniture. They say, I'm really tired of this room. And there's two ways of doing that. One is to completely redecorate. The last time you decorated it was probably you and you're not a very good decorator. And what you say is, let's bring in a decorator. Well, that's going to cost a lot. Say, no, no, let's just take a weekend and repaint the room and we'll get new slip covers for the furniture and we'll rearrange the furniture.
And I'm not saying that's not going to make you feel better, but you'll get bored with that pretty quick. What you want to do is you want to have a changed future. With 2x you want to have a changed future, but you want to do it with as little change. Where 10x you knew from your past experience of going from one-tenth to where you are today, there was radical change. You became a different person, your team became a different team, your check writers became different check writers. And it wasn't that all that wasn't possible, but you had no need to do it. I don't think anybody's really motivated to double. The other thing is that your worst people in your company try to prevent the change.
Shannon Waller: That's interesting.
Dan Sullivan: And they go into a protective mode because they can't see any payoff because it's usually going to involve them working harder and working longer at what already doesn't satisfy them. It's a hard case to make. We're going to double now, but it's going to require working nights. It's going to require working weekends. And we got to cut costs, we have to cut costs and everything. Those are disincentives.
And you see the corporations, all of a sudden the world has changed because supply chains are not making the cost of transportation just 1% of the total cost now. And now the cost of transportation to get what you want is 5%. And the first thing they do is that they fire thousands and ten thousands of staff. Now, they probably should have fired them anyway a long time ago, but they were saying, yeah, but they'll work on 10 years in the future projects. But it's linear thinking. But 10x is multi-dimensional thinking and 2x is linear thinking. It's not exciting. It's not exciting, okay? But 10x is exciting.
Shannon Waller: It's a very different mindset. 2x is longer. Do more with what I have, work longer, work harder, and I can do it. And everyone's like, as you said, total disincentive for performers and almost everybody else. But 10x is like, oh, there's a knowledge there that you need to reinvent your time, your focus, your attention, your clientele, your systems. And so it actually creates an opening in one's thinking to think 10x, which for some of us is way more exciting. I think any successful entrepreneur would fit into that category. And then it's like, oh, okay, what could I do differently? But basing it on how you've already done it before and those key factors and principles, that's transformative right there.
Dan Sullivan: The only thing you're changing is your understanding of how you've grown before. Right now you don't really even understand how you grew before. And just by dividing what you're doing by 10 and taking it back to one-tenth, all of a sudden the big decisions you made, the big new opportunities you had, the new big capabilities you took on, the much, much better relationships in the marketplace that you had, they suddenly pop out. But you had no reason to see them before and you had no reason to learn from them before, because the 10x. And it's very difficult for people to say, what are we going to be doing 10x more than what we're doing right now, okay, because there's no evidence for it. But how you went from one-tenth to where you are right now, there's all the evidence in the world that you want to look at that tells you exactly how you did it.
Not how other people do it, but how you did it. So, we're looking at other people and saying, how did they go 10x? It's meaningless information because it's not the way you've already done it and it's not the way they're going to do it. And everybody's trying to get best practices from other people. They're trying to say, “I want to be like Steve Jobs.” And I say, “You don't even know what that means. Steve Jobs probably didn't really realize what it was like to be Steve Jobs.” So, how can you learn? You can't learn anything from other people's success. You can only identify where you've been successful and how did you do it. So, all the knowledge you need to go 10x is already contained 80% in how you went from one-tenth of where you are to right now.
Shannon Waller: And Dan, this is not only something that needs to be financial, right? So, that's the company version with revenue. But we talk about 10xing a lot of different things, the quality of relationships, free time.
Dan Sullivan: There's four freedoms. Yeah.
Shannon Waller: Yeah. Let's talk about not just financial.
Dan Sullivan: You won't go 10x unless you acquire a greater freedom of time, personal time, okay? You will not set it as a goal. You will not commit to it unless one of the payoffs for going 10x business wise, let's stay with business, unless you have more freedom of time. So as you grow, you get freer. Okay. And that's freedom at work, at work, you more and more just work on what you love doing, what you really enjoy, what you find exciting. And you have a lot more freedom away from work to expand your personal life. You won't do it. You won't do it. Not with your present family. I mean, I know people who in the attempt to constantly grow business-wise will destroy everything else in their life. Now at the end, they're not seen as successes. They're seen as sort of obsessive jerks. They're not admirable, and after a while they don't have any old friends and everything else.
And then there's freedom of money that the kind of money you're making is enjoyable money, okay, and it's profitable money. It's productive money. Okay, so that's the freedom of money. Then there's freedom of relationship, is that who you're doing it with and who you're doing it for has to get better and better. And then freedom of purpose. Why are you doing any of this? And that's got to get sharper and clearer in your mind. Okay?
But all of I'm saying right now about 10x ahead is exactly where you were when you were one-tenth of right now, and you didn't know any of today back then. You created today out of back then. And if you did it for freedom, you're much freer at 10x bigger than you were in the past. That's true for me. It's true for all the entrepreneurs in our program. Their income is a measurement. It's a scorecard of how much they've improved, but they don't value it unless it came with the increase of their four freedoms of time, money, relationship, and purpose.
Shannon Waller: That's a really powerful connection, Dan, that 10x doesn't happen and isn't fun unless you are 10xing your four freedoms, right?
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. 10x quantitative is meaningless unless there's 10x qualitative.
Shannon Waller: I love that. I mean, who wants 10x harder? That would make absolutely no sense. So Dan, we've talked about what 10x Is Easier Than 2x means, and I really appreciate you walking through that thinking process. That is, people are taking notes. And then why it's so critical is because we just think really, really differently. So, how can people just jump in and take action? Obviously the book's coming out in May, which we're very excited about, but what is something that someone can do right now to 10x their own thinking, be it regards to freedoms or something else?
Dan Sullivan: Just take your present results and say when was I one-tenth of that and write the history and that 80% of what you need to do it again is already there in your experience, your successful experience. And your unsuccessful experience. It's success and failure. They're both very, very interesting topics. Shannon, you joined us when we were one-250th. We're 250 times bigger now than... probably we're in the hundreds of times bigger. And we didn't know any of the stuff we're doing today. We didn't know any of this stuff.
Shannon Waller: Not even close.
Dan Sullivan: The team we have, the technology we have, the marketplace reach we have. Well, first of all, it didn't exist, so how could you focus on it? But we constantly grew quarter by quarter. And the one thing we had, which is a basic rule that we operate on quarterly workshops. It's only for entrepreneurs. It's only for successful, talented, ambitious entrepreneurs who are looking for a next jump and they're looking for more freedom in their life. They want to be able to use their future success to go back and repair some damage that they've done to their health, to their relationships. So, right off, we're not interested in anybody who's not an entrepreneur. We just don't wish them badly, but this is not who we're about.
The other thing is that they're the one who has to decide to be in the Program. They're the one who has to write the check. The commitment is only for a year at a time. We now have people in the Program who have been committing each year for more than 30 years. And you're a team member who has committed continually for 30 years. So, there's got to be a incentive for that. And the incentive for our entrepreneurial clients is that every quarter there's something new. It's the 34th year, and I will have done 132 quarters and every quarter for 130 quarters, I created something new.
Shannon Waller: That's true.
Dan Sullivan: The other thing is, for the team members every quarter there's going to be new challenges that both encourage you and require you that you're just doing what you love doing and you're just doing what you're really good at, and you have to give up things that you're not. And you have to bring in people who are better at doing the things that you're giving up than you were, and they can do it all the time. So, you get access to people who are smarter, more talented, and you got to be willing to do that. And the same thing is true of the entrepreneurs. They have to grow or they have to go.
Shannon Waller: And that's one of our mottoes, grow or go.
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. And that's 10x. That's part of 10x. There is no point in the future where you can't grow, okay? Shannon Waller: Yeah. Yeah. I love that thread you brought through, which is that there are some things that are going to stay the same. The quality of our clients is immeasurably better and different than it was-
Dan Sullivan: But the kind of client is exactly the same.
Shannon Waller: Exactly. And we have a Program and it has quarterly workshops. And so, I remember one time I came into a dear friend, his office at five o'clock, and I was so excited about this new idea I had. And he asked me this question... It was Ross, Dan. He goes, “Shannon, please just tell me what's going to stay the same.” Because I, of course, have way more mental energy for that than he did. And it was such a great question because there's a lot that's going to stay the same in terms of the core and even the key factors to go 10x and then it's that other 80% that's actually going to shift.
So, reminding yourself, your team, what's going to stay the same. I think sometimes people freak themselves out about the future because they think everything has to change. Your Unique Ability, what you love to do and do best is actually going to get deeper and richer and more focused on the right clientele. You're not going to completely change your stripes. So, I think that's what's going to stay the same, but what can change. Always be growing, grow or go is really key. And I just really appreciate the practical how to do it. Take last year's revenue and 10x and then decide, figure out how you got there, divide by one-tenth. That's a really simple, easy, paper and pencil exercise to go do right after this conversation.
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. And the thing is that it's only a certain type of entrepreneur who has an interest in this. And I would say that there's a fork in the road about successful entrepreneurs. And that is, what I discovered is that there are people who we coach, who are in Strategic Coach, and they're really excited about the 10x mindset. And the reason is because it gets them to a somewhere that's always been their goal. So, they have a destination. That's one fork in the road, and these individuals leave us after a while and they never come back. And then there's another fork where people have this 10x goal because it's not about getting to a destination, it's getting to a way of operating where they can constantly operate.
And the difference is that the first group have status goals. So, they grew up and they noticed that people had better things, they had better houses, they had better cars, they were better dressed. They lived in a better part of town or the city. They belong to better clubs, they took better vacations, and they had a better reputation, they had better connections. But it was all status. It was nothing about them. It was all about other people. And they have to go 10x to get to that better status. But once they get there, they stop growing. Because life is not about growth. Life is about status.
And the other people who have the 10x is that they always want to grow, and what 10x does, it gives them a way of ensuring in the future that they're always going to have to grow. There's always going to have to be new challenges. There's going to have to be new things that require courage, and they want to be in a mode where for the rest of their life, the day they die, they're in their next stage of growth. As far as can be.
The world depends upon a lot of people being more successful for status. It's very, very good. It sets a good model and it gives people a sense of purpose, gives people a sense of maintenance. And there are people who are in it for constant growth, constant learning, constant improvement, constant innovation. They're in for it and the world really needs them. And actually the world needs more of the former than it needs of the latter. So, I would say that about 95% of actual entrepreneurs, successful entrepreneurs, are status-driven and about 5% are growth-driven. And that's all that the world requires is that 5% of the growth entrepreneurs be growth-oriented.
Shannon Waller: Oh, I love that, Dan. And it's interesting because the people who are going for status, the ones who are going for conventional success versus the growth entrepreneurs. And growth entrepreneurs, I love what you said, but not where they have to go. So, they put themselves in a environment with other people, the community of people who are also going 10x, and they're always challenging themselves. And I know for me in 10x and coaching 10x, it feeds itself in such a positive way. There's so much reinforcement for always growing. It's like, oh, you learned that? Fantastic. What not to do or how to grow or have you tried out this technology yet? There's so much support for that 10x expansion that people cannot not grow, which is really fun to be a part of.
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. And it's really interesting. I was fooled at first when I first started coaching entrepreneurs because I'm a pure growth entrepreneur. So, I had people who were growing because they're motivated by a status that they didn't yet have. So, they weren't at the level of status that they wanted. And there were people who were growth entrepreneurs, and I was fooled. I thought both of them were growth entrepreneurs. The telltale for me is usually if I'm talking to someone, it's usually the first minute or two minutes I know which they are. Okay?
Shannon Waller: Wow. That fast? That's cool.
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. And the reason is, status entrepreneurs want to talk about their successes and they want to talk about how other people are successful. And growth entrepreneurs want to talk about their failures and they want to talk about other people's failures. And the reason is, how did you transform yourself when you failed? And the reason is, that calls for a constant transformation and change. That's the only subject they're interested and they don't care what their status is because the only people they hang out with are in the experience. And that's why growth entrepreneurs can never retire. Because if you retire, the only community that will have you is status people. Growth entrepreneurs will reject you immediately the moment you stop growing.
Shannon Waller: Oh my gosh, you just clarified something for me.
Dan Sullivan: Well, first of all, successful entrepreneurs, they have the unfortunate habit when they retire, they go and live with a bunch of retired corporate bureaucrats, who it was all about status from the beginning. I mean, they rejected the corporate route to success or it rejected them...
Shannon Waller: They didn't fit.
Dan Sullivan: ... when they were in their twenties, and then they retire and then they go and live in a gated golf community that's made up with people who were forced into retirement when they were 60 or 65, and their whole business life and their business success was strictly what they got to do when they retired. All the entrepreneurs that I know and work with, the growth goes right to the end. And they don't think about it a lot. They don't think about it. It's just, what's the next stage of growth?
Shannon Waller: It's so interesting, Dan. It's like, are you a status entrepreneur? Are you a growth entrepreneur? But 10x, if this conversation has you kind of salivating, you've made it so crystal clear in terms of how to really get this thinking into your own mindset, into your own practices so that you can go 10x.
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, and I would say, Shannon, and you've seen it too, because you've had as much experience with entrepreneurs over your 30 plus years as I have, because you have more of an insight understanding of entrepreneurs than I do simply because you created the entire Team Program. So, you have their team members, and the team members can tell you right off the bat whether they're a growth entrepreneur or a status entrepreneur, okay? And so, you have that understanding. But people say, “Well, we got to make more entrepreneurs growth-minded.” I said, “You only need 5% of entrepreneurs.” And I said, “A sailboat can't be all sails and rudder. You need a massive amount of ballast, and status entrepreneurs, they're the dead weight. They're the dead weight that keeps things stable. Growth entrepreneurs are disruptive. They're always making something obsolete. And status entrepreneurs, after a while, can't stand being near or in the company with a growth entrepreneur because it's a reminder to them that they stopped.”
Shannon Waller: Right, yeah. It's a bit confronting.
Dan Sullivan: And the other thing is that growth entrepreneurs just don't hang out with... If they're happy. I mean, a lot of them are confused and they're trying to get the admiration of people.
Shannon Waller: Well, that's what I find, Dan, when we put those growth entrepreneurs together, that they relax, they start breathing deeply, they get calmer, they're worried about arriving. They've arrived. Now it's just time to expand their capabilities and they just become the kind of entrepreneur and the kind of person that they've always aspired to be. And that's all a result of the thinking processes that we do in Coach, through the Signature, through 10x, through Free Zone. So, it's really fun, because we get to see that process and that progress and that upgrading at every level of thinking. It's really exciting.
Dan Sullivan: Well, here's the question for you. We met you when we were renting workshop space from another, it was a sort of consultants. They had kind of a shared backstage and everything, but they were independent consultants. But what really struck me about meeting, except for yourself and Ross, there was no life. There was no life. And I had a feeling that they were very, very status driven. All the consultants there were very status driven. The owners of the conference center, I found them, they weren't growth oriented at all. I mean, we were there, what, for a year, a year and a half?
Shannon Waller: Yeah, yeah.
Dan Sullivan: I don't know what it was. And they never once inquired what we did. And I think the reason is they could tell that what we were after had nothing to do with what they were after. Okay? And you were immediately aware of the difference between them and us.
Shannon Waller: It was so stark, Dan. I mean, in terms of when Strategic Coach clients would come in, because they would come in early in the morning as they do now, like 8, 8:30, and they'd be shaking hands and then they'd go, "Hi, I'm Bob." I'm like, I thought they already knew each other because they were so open, so gregarious, couldn't wait to connect and meet other people. And versus the corporate training, which we also hosted, 'cause we had really good classy rooms. And they were like, file in, not talk to one another, just put their time in so they get their credits, whatever it was. The difference was so stark between Coach and everybody else who rented the seminar room space, which was one of the lines of business.
Dan Sullivan: And then we asked you to come in and actually participate and-
Shannon Waller: Well, I asked if I could come and see your presentation. And then 20 minutes later, I got a phone call when I got home, and then five weeks later I was on board. So, I jumped both feet, very innocent feet at that point, into working with Coach.
Dan Sullivan: Yup. I don't think I've ever asked you this question, but if you stand back and have observed Babs over 30 years and you observed me over 30 years, what's exactly the same now as was the same the first year you were at the company?
Shannon Waller: Your value system is identical. Nothing has changed in terms of your value system. Who you are as individual people is absolutely the same. I mean, you've grown more capable, more confident, probably even happier. All the not working stuff has kind of sloughed off and more of who you are has come to the forefront, but you're still doing what you were doing back then, Dan, in terms of coaching people and asking great questions and all that. Babs is still being her fearless leader self. And so, it's just who you are as individuals.
And this came out actually in a conversation with our dear friend Cathy Davis. We just have expanded freedom to be ourselves. And I think that's true of you, Babs, myself, Cathy, our team. And that's just a joyful environment in which to grow. So, it's not that I'm contorted or a different person. I actually can be more myself and discover what I'm capable of and of contributing. So, who you are at the essence has stayed the same, but then your impact is what has really, really shifted.
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, I would say it's really interesting because there are websites you can go to and it's the history of small businesses, small- to medium-sized businesses, and they have that out of 10 that start maybe at the end of the first 10 years... And these are privately owned companies... that in 10 years they have achieved more than a million dollars in earnings and they're still the way they were. And it's about one in a thousand.
And then when you go to 25 years, and that's still true, and now they're over 10 million from the start, it's about probably one in a hundred thousand. Okay? And now we're into our 34th year and we're no longer a small business, but we're still exactly the same ownership, the same structure, the same process, the same target market, the same value creation proposition. Everything is exactly the same. And I would say that in the service world, 'cause we're a service organization, we're probably a one in a million organization.
Shannon Waller: For sure.
Dan Sullivan: And the reason is that you grow or go, for our clients and for our team. And it's you being your best person as, and you got to constantly be getting better at who you actually are and making a bigger contribution. And that's both for the customers and the clients and that's for our team members. So, we go through constant lots of change, but at the center we don't change at all. The world changes around us, but we don't change at all.
Shannon Waller: And Dan, two points about that. One is the longevity of Coach is pretty flipping spectacular. Highly, highly unusual, definitely one in a million. And then, the other thing is the trick is not to get trapped in status. I mean, if you're not oriented that way, that's easy. But there's some seductive things out there. And we both know organizations and people and even some of my early colleagues in the other company who got trapped in status and they never changed. They never grew. So, I think it's interesting. I think it's something to be not wary of, but definitely to be aware of because there's a lot of noise. There's more people at that level. And then, to stay focused on growth, to me, anyway, it's important to me to be in an environment and with other people who are also share that mindset. My family is that already, but then I found my work family. That has been critical, a critical factor in my growth and development. As always, Dan, insightful conversation. Thank you so much.
Dan Sullivan: Thank you, Shannon.
So, they can fill in all the forms as I go through the questions and I said, “Now here's the thing. You now know that you've already done 10x. And not only that, but you're pretty clear how you did it last time. You've probably done it more than once. You've gone 10x twice. So the advantage is that you have a history of going 10x and you're more comfortable and you're more confident. And right off the bat, basically what has to change to go 10x higher?” So, for us to go to 400 million as a company, we know we have to have all of our people decreasing the amount of activity that they're doing and stop doing anything they're not good at. And then bringing on new team members who are really great. And not only inside team members, but outside team members, collaborators out in the world. And more and more just go for where the money is and where the big check writers are and more and more become a great problem solver for the people who write the biggest checks.
And not only that, but technology is on an exponential growth path, and we're going to keep getting the multiplying benefit of new technology, better people, and there's going to be bigger and bigger check writers that we can be valuable to in the marketplace. And our reputation's going to spread, and we're going to have access to communication networks and reach. And we know that because that's what happened last time and that's what happened the time before.
So, that's the basic logic. You don't talk about the future at all because people get freaked out about the future. And I get freaked out about the future before because I'm just making it up. But I'm not making up my past and I already proved to myself. And the final question in this, Shannon, is if you go back now with the knowledge you've acquired in going from one-tenth to where you are today, go back to where you were that day and none of what you did could have been predicted. But this time what you would do to go 10x more can be predicted because it's going to follow the same pattern that you've already mastered.
Shannon Waller: That is so powerful, Dan, because we've already done it and I've been in workshops, people go, Whoa, I just didn't even realize.” It's another form of the Gain as opposed the Gap, which is measuring where did I come from? And through this 10x context is really interesting.
Dan Sullivan: Got a new book idea I want to jot it down.
Shannon Waller: Oh, there you go.
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, this is part of the podcast.
Shannon Waller: It's all good.
Dan Sullivan: You want the book title?
Shannon Waller: What is it?
Dan Sullivan: Stop Scaring Yourself With the Future.
Shannon Waller: Ooh, love that one.
Dan Sullivan: I think life is so safe and secure for most people that they're really missing what used to scare human beings all the time. So-
Shannon Waller: Right. We're making it up.
Dan Sullivan: In the old days, you didn't have to make up things to be scared about things. But more and more in today, we have to make up things to scare ourselves because so much is taken care of.
Shannon Waller: I cannot wait to have that conversation because I have some thoughts about that, too. I totally agree. So Dan, just getting back to 10x Is Easier Than 2x, so that's how to think 10x and reflecting back on the fact you've already done it and what are the key factors that had you do that. All of a sudden you've got this suite of things that you can employ to go your next 10x. But how is it easier than 2x? Let's dive into that for a moment because a lot of people think if they doubled, that would be a huge win. That would be massive progress. But you're taking it to a whole other level.
Dan Sullivan: Well, let's use the same logic because 2x is that you go back to when you were half as big as you are right now, and it's not a very interesting... You went half and you said, so how do we go double now? And you say, nothing really different has to happen. Because most people say, how can I get a bigger result without me having to change myself or change what we're doing? And the first thing they think of, I have to fire somebody, I have to fire somebody.
And it's usually their response to going double is it's like moving the furniture. They say, I'm really tired of this room. And there's two ways of doing that. One is to completely redecorate. The last time you decorated it was probably you and you're not a very good decorator. And what you say is, let's bring in a decorator. Well, that's going to cost a lot. Say, no, no, let's just take a weekend and repaint the room and we'll get new slip covers for the furniture and we'll rearrange the furniture.
And I'm not saying that's not going to make you feel better, but you'll get bored with that pretty quick. What you want to do is you want to have a changed future. With 2x you want to have a changed future, but you want to do it with as little change. Where 10x you knew from your past experience of going from one-tenth to where you are today, there was radical change. You became a different person, your team became a different team, your check writers became different check writers. And it wasn't that all that wasn't possible, but you had no need to do it. I don't think anybody's really motivated to double. The other thing is that your worst people in your company try to prevent the change.
Shannon Waller: That's interesting.
Dan Sullivan: And they go into a protective mode because they can't see any payoff because it's usually going to involve them working harder and working longer at what already doesn't satisfy them. It's a hard case to make. We're going to double now, but it's going to require working nights. It's going to require working weekends. And we got to cut costs, we have to cut costs and everything. Those are disincentives.
And you see the corporations, all of a sudden the world has changed because supply chains are not making the cost of transportation just 1% of the total cost now. And now the cost of transportation to get what you want is 5%. And the first thing they do is that they fire thousands and ten thousands of staff. Now, they probably should have fired them anyway a long time ago, but they were saying, yeah, but they'll work on 10 years in the future projects. But it's linear thinking. But 10x is multi-dimensional thinking and 2x is linear thinking. It's not exciting. It's not exciting, okay? But 10x is exciting.
Shannon Waller: It's a very different mindset. 2x is longer. Do more with what I have, work longer, work harder, and I can do it. And everyone's like, as you said, total disincentive for performers and almost everybody else. But 10x is like, oh, there's a knowledge there that you need to reinvent your time, your focus, your attention, your clientele, your systems. And so it actually creates an opening in one's thinking to think 10x, which for some of us is way more exciting. I think any successful entrepreneur would fit into that category. And then it's like, oh, okay, what could I do differently? But basing it on how you've already done it before and those key factors and principles, that's transformative right there.
Dan Sullivan: The only thing you're changing is your understanding of how you've grown before. Right now you don't really even understand how you grew before. And just by dividing what you're doing by 10 and taking it back to one-tenth, all of a sudden the big decisions you made, the big new opportunities you had, the new big capabilities you took on, the much, much better relationships in the marketplace that you had, they suddenly pop out. But you had no reason to see them before and you had no reason to learn from them before, because the 10x. And it's very difficult for people to say, what are we going to be doing 10x more than what we're doing right now, okay, because there's no evidence for it. But how you went from one-tenth to where you are right now, there's all the evidence in the world that you want to look at that tells you exactly how you did it.
Not how other people do it, but how you did it. So, we're looking at other people and saying, how did they go 10x? It's meaningless information because it's not the way you've already done it and it's not the way they're going to do it. And everybody's trying to get best practices from other people. They're trying to say, “I want to be like Steve Jobs.” And I say, “You don't even know what that means. Steve Jobs probably didn't really realize what it was like to be Steve Jobs.” So, how can you learn? You can't learn anything from other people's success. You can only identify where you've been successful and how did you do it. So, all the knowledge you need to go 10x is already contained 80% in how you went from one-tenth of where you are to right now.
Shannon Waller: And Dan, this is not only something that needs to be financial, right? So, that's the company version with revenue. But we talk about 10xing a lot of different things, the quality of relationships, free time.
Dan Sullivan: There's four freedoms. Yeah.
Shannon Waller: Yeah. Let's talk about not just financial.
Dan Sullivan: You won't go 10x unless you acquire a greater freedom of time, personal time, okay? You will not set it as a goal. You will not commit to it unless one of the payoffs for going 10x business wise, let's stay with business, unless you have more freedom of time. So as you grow, you get freer. Okay. And that's freedom at work, at work, you more and more just work on what you love doing, what you really enjoy, what you find exciting. And you have a lot more freedom away from work to expand your personal life. You won't do it. You won't do it. Not with your present family. I mean, I know people who in the attempt to constantly grow business-wise will destroy everything else in their life. Now at the end, they're not seen as successes. They're seen as sort of obsessive jerks. They're not admirable, and after a while they don't have any old friends and everything else.
And then there's freedom of money that the kind of money you're making is enjoyable money, okay, and it's profitable money. It's productive money. Okay, so that's the freedom of money. Then there's freedom of relationship, is that who you're doing it with and who you're doing it for has to get better and better. And then freedom of purpose. Why are you doing any of this? And that's got to get sharper and clearer in your mind. Okay?
But all of I'm saying right now about 10x ahead is exactly where you were when you were one-tenth of right now, and you didn't know any of today back then. You created today out of back then. And if you did it for freedom, you're much freer at 10x bigger than you were in the past. That's true for me. It's true for all the entrepreneurs in our program. Their income is a measurement. It's a scorecard of how much they've improved, but they don't value it unless it came with the increase of their four freedoms of time, money, relationship, and purpose.
Shannon Waller: That's a really powerful connection, Dan, that 10x doesn't happen and isn't fun unless you are 10xing your four freedoms, right?
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. 10x quantitative is meaningless unless there's 10x qualitative.
Shannon Waller: I love that. I mean, who wants 10x harder? That would make absolutely no sense. So Dan, we've talked about what 10x Is Easier Than 2x means, and I really appreciate you walking through that thinking process. That is, people are taking notes. And then why it's so critical is because we just think really, really differently. So, how can people just jump in and take action? Obviously the book's coming out in May, which we're very excited about, but what is something that someone can do right now to 10x their own thinking, be it regards to freedoms or something else?
Dan Sullivan: Just take your present results and say when was I one-tenth of that and write the history and that 80% of what you need to do it again is already there in your experience, your successful experience. And your unsuccessful experience. It's success and failure. They're both very, very interesting topics. Shannon, you joined us when we were one-250th. We're 250 times bigger now than... probably we're in the hundreds of times bigger. And we didn't know any of the stuff we're doing today. We didn't know any of this stuff.
Shannon Waller: Not even close.
Dan Sullivan: The team we have, the technology we have, the marketplace reach we have. Well, first of all, it didn't exist, so how could you focus on it? But we constantly grew quarter by quarter. And the one thing we had, which is a basic rule that we operate on quarterly workshops. It's only for entrepreneurs. It's only for successful, talented, ambitious entrepreneurs who are looking for a next jump and they're looking for more freedom in their life. They want to be able to use their future success to go back and repair some damage that they've done to their health, to their relationships. So, right off, we're not interested in anybody who's not an entrepreneur. We just don't wish them badly, but this is not who we're about.
The other thing is that they're the one who has to decide to be in the Program. They're the one who has to write the check. The commitment is only for a year at a time. We now have people in the Program who have been committing each year for more than 30 years. And you're a team member who has committed continually for 30 years. So, there's got to be a incentive for that. And the incentive for our entrepreneurial clients is that every quarter there's something new. It's the 34th year, and I will have done 132 quarters and every quarter for 130 quarters, I created something new.
Shannon Waller: That's true.
Dan Sullivan: The other thing is, for the team members every quarter there's going to be new challenges that both encourage you and require you that you're just doing what you love doing and you're just doing what you're really good at, and you have to give up things that you're not. And you have to bring in people who are better at doing the things that you're giving up than you were, and they can do it all the time. So, you get access to people who are smarter, more talented, and you got to be willing to do that. And the same thing is true of the entrepreneurs. They have to grow or they have to go.
Shannon Waller: And that's one of our mottoes, grow or go.
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. And that's 10x. That's part of 10x. There is no point in the future where you can't grow, okay? Shannon Waller: Yeah. Yeah. I love that thread you brought through, which is that there are some things that are going to stay the same. The quality of our clients is immeasurably better and different than it was-
Dan Sullivan: But the kind of client is exactly the same.
Shannon Waller: Exactly. And we have a Program and it has quarterly workshops. And so, I remember one time I came into a dear friend, his office at five o'clock, and I was so excited about this new idea I had. And he asked me this question... It was Ross, Dan. He goes, “Shannon, please just tell me what's going to stay the same.” Because I, of course, have way more mental energy for that than he did. And it was such a great question because there's a lot that's going to stay the same in terms of the core and even the key factors to go 10x and then it's that other 80% that's actually going to shift.
So, reminding yourself, your team, what's going to stay the same. I think sometimes people freak themselves out about the future because they think everything has to change. Your Unique Ability, what you love to do and do best is actually going to get deeper and richer and more focused on the right clientele. You're not going to completely change your stripes. So, I think that's what's going to stay the same, but what can change. Always be growing, grow or go is really key. And I just really appreciate the practical how to do it. Take last year's revenue and 10x and then decide, figure out how you got there, divide by one-tenth. That's a really simple, easy, paper and pencil exercise to go do right after this conversation.
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. And the thing is that it's only a certain type of entrepreneur who has an interest in this. And I would say that there's a fork in the road about successful entrepreneurs. And that is, what I discovered is that there are people who we coach, who are in Strategic Coach, and they're really excited about the 10x mindset. And the reason is because it gets them to a somewhere that's always been their goal. So, they have a destination. That's one fork in the road, and these individuals leave us after a while and they never come back. And then there's another fork where people have this 10x goal because it's not about getting to a destination, it's getting to a way of operating where they can constantly operate.
And the difference is that the first group have status goals. So, they grew up and they noticed that people had better things, they had better houses, they had better cars, they were better dressed. They lived in a better part of town or the city. They belong to better clubs, they took better vacations, and they had a better reputation, they had better connections. But it was all status. It was nothing about them. It was all about other people. And they have to go 10x to get to that better status. But once they get there, they stop growing. Because life is not about growth. Life is about status.
And the other people who have the 10x is that they always want to grow, and what 10x does, it gives them a way of ensuring in the future that they're always going to have to grow. There's always going to have to be new challenges. There's going to have to be new things that require courage, and they want to be in a mode where for the rest of their life, the day they die, they're in their next stage of growth. As far as can be.
The world depends upon a lot of people being more successful for status. It's very, very good. It sets a good model and it gives people a sense of purpose, gives people a sense of maintenance. And there are people who are in it for constant growth, constant learning, constant improvement, constant innovation. They're in for it and the world really needs them. And actually the world needs more of the former than it needs of the latter. So, I would say that about 95% of actual entrepreneurs, successful entrepreneurs, are status-driven and about 5% are growth-driven. And that's all that the world requires is that 5% of the growth entrepreneurs be growth-oriented.
Shannon Waller: Oh, I love that, Dan. And it's interesting because the people who are going for status, the ones who are going for conventional success versus the growth entrepreneurs. And growth entrepreneurs, I love what you said, but not where they have to go. So, they put themselves in a environment with other people, the community of people who are also going 10x, and they're always challenging themselves. And I know for me in 10x and coaching 10x, it feeds itself in such a positive way. There's so much reinforcement for always growing. It's like, oh, you learned that? Fantastic. What not to do or how to grow or have you tried out this technology yet? There's so much support for that 10x expansion that people cannot not grow, which is really fun to be a part of.
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. And it's really interesting. I was fooled at first when I first started coaching entrepreneurs because I'm a pure growth entrepreneur. So, I had people who were growing because they're motivated by a status that they didn't yet have. So, they weren't at the level of status that they wanted. And there were people who were growth entrepreneurs, and I was fooled. I thought both of them were growth entrepreneurs. The telltale for me is usually if I'm talking to someone, it's usually the first minute or two minutes I know which they are. Okay?
Shannon Waller: Wow. That fast? That's cool.
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. And the reason is, status entrepreneurs want to talk about their successes and they want to talk about how other people are successful. And growth entrepreneurs want to talk about their failures and they want to talk about other people's failures. And the reason is, how did you transform yourself when you failed? And the reason is, that calls for a constant transformation and change. That's the only subject they're interested and they don't care what their status is because the only people they hang out with are in the experience. And that's why growth entrepreneurs can never retire. Because if you retire, the only community that will have you is status people. Growth entrepreneurs will reject you immediately the moment you stop growing.
Shannon Waller: Oh my gosh, you just clarified something for me.
Dan Sullivan: Well, first of all, successful entrepreneurs, they have the unfortunate habit when they retire, they go and live with a bunch of retired corporate bureaucrats, who it was all about status from the beginning. I mean, they rejected the corporate route to success or it rejected them...
Shannon Waller: They didn't fit.
Dan Sullivan: ... when they were in their twenties, and then they retire and then they go and live in a gated golf community that's made up with people who were forced into retirement when they were 60 or 65, and their whole business life and their business success was strictly what they got to do when they retired. All the entrepreneurs that I know and work with, the growth goes right to the end. And they don't think about it a lot. They don't think about it. It's just, what's the next stage of growth?
Shannon Waller: It's so interesting, Dan. It's like, are you a status entrepreneur? Are you a growth entrepreneur? But 10x, if this conversation has you kind of salivating, you've made it so crystal clear in terms of how to really get this thinking into your own mindset, into your own practices so that you can go 10x.
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, and I would say, Shannon, and you've seen it too, because you've had as much experience with entrepreneurs over your 30 plus years as I have, because you have more of an insight understanding of entrepreneurs than I do simply because you created the entire Team Program. So, you have their team members, and the team members can tell you right off the bat whether they're a growth entrepreneur or a status entrepreneur, okay? And so, you have that understanding. But people say, “Well, we got to make more entrepreneurs growth-minded.” I said, “You only need 5% of entrepreneurs.” And I said, “A sailboat can't be all sails and rudder. You need a massive amount of ballast, and status entrepreneurs, they're the dead weight. They're the dead weight that keeps things stable. Growth entrepreneurs are disruptive. They're always making something obsolete. And status entrepreneurs, after a while, can't stand being near or in the company with a growth entrepreneur because it's a reminder to them that they stopped.”
Shannon Waller: Right, yeah. It's a bit confronting.
Dan Sullivan: And the other thing is that growth entrepreneurs just don't hang out with... If they're happy. I mean, a lot of them are confused and they're trying to get the admiration of people.
Shannon Waller: Well, that's what I find, Dan, when we put those growth entrepreneurs together, that they relax, they start breathing deeply, they get calmer, they're worried about arriving. They've arrived. Now it's just time to expand their capabilities and they just become the kind of entrepreneur and the kind of person that they've always aspired to be. And that's all a result of the thinking processes that we do in Coach, through the Signature, through 10x, through Free Zone. So, it's really fun, because we get to see that process and that progress and that upgrading at every level of thinking. It's really exciting.
Dan Sullivan: Well, here's the question for you. We met you when we were renting workshop space from another, it was a sort of consultants. They had kind of a shared backstage and everything, but they were independent consultants. But what really struck me about meeting, except for yourself and Ross, there was no life. There was no life. And I had a feeling that they were very, very status driven. All the consultants there were very status driven. The owners of the conference center, I found them, they weren't growth oriented at all. I mean, we were there, what, for a year, a year and a half?
Shannon Waller: Yeah, yeah.
Dan Sullivan: I don't know what it was. And they never once inquired what we did. And I think the reason is they could tell that what we were after had nothing to do with what they were after. Okay? And you were immediately aware of the difference between them and us.
Shannon Waller: It was so stark, Dan. I mean, in terms of when Strategic Coach clients would come in, because they would come in early in the morning as they do now, like 8, 8:30, and they'd be shaking hands and then they'd go, "Hi, I'm Bob." I'm like, I thought they already knew each other because they were so open, so gregarious, couldn't wait to connect and meet other people. And versus the corporate training, which we also hosted, 'cause we had really good classy rooms. And they were like, file in, not talk to one another, just put their time in so they get their credits, whatever it was. The difference was so stark between Coach and everybody else who rented the seminar room space, which was one of the lines of business.
Dan Sullivan: And then we asked you to come in and actually participate and-
Shannon Waller: Well, I asked if I could come and see your presentation. And then 20 minutes later, I got a phone call when I got home, and then five weeks later I was on board. So, I jumped both feet, very innocent feet at that point, into working with Coach.
Dan Sullivan: Yup. I don't think I've ever asked you this question, but if you stand back and have observed Babs over 30 years and you observed me over 30 years, what's exactly the same now as was the same the first year you were at the company?
Shannon Waller: Your value system is identical. Nothing has changed in terms of your value system. Who you are as individual people is absolutely the same. I mean, you've grown more capable, more confident, probably even happier. All the not working stuff has kind of sloughed off and more of who you are has come to the forefront, but you're still doing what you were doing back then, Dan, in terms of coaching people and asking great questions and all that. Babs is still being her fearless leader self. And so, it's just who you are as individuals.
And this came out actually in a conversation with our dear friend Cathy Davis. We just have expanded freedom to be ourselves. And I think that's true of you, Babs, myself, Cathy, our team. And that's just a joyful environment in which to grow. So, it's not that I'm contorted or a different person. I actually can be more myself and discover what I'm capable of and of contributing. So, who you are at the essence has stayed the same, but then your impact is what has really, really shifted.
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, I would say it's really interesting because there are websites you can go to and it's the history of small businesses, small- to medium-sized businesses, and they have that out of 10 that start maybe at the end of the first 10 years... And these are privately owned companies... that in 10 years they have achieved more than a million dollars in earnings and they're still the way they were. And it's about one in a thousand.
And then when you go to 25 years, and that's still true, and now they're over 10 million from the start, it's about probably one in a hundred thousand. Okay? And now we're into our 34th year and we're no longer a small business, but we're still exactly the same ownership, the same structure, the same process, the same target market, the same value creation proposition. Everything is exactly the same. And I would say that in the service world, 'cause we're a service organization, we're probably a one in a million organization.
Shannon Waller: For sure.
Dan Sullivan: And the reason is that you grow or go, for our clients and for our team. And it's you being your best person as, and you got to constantly be getting better at who you actually are and making a bigger contribution. And that's both for the customers and the clients and that's for our team members. So, we go through constant lots of change, but at the center we don't change at all. The world changes around us, but we don't change at all.
Shannon Waller: And Dan, two points about that. One is the longevity of Coach is pretty flipping spectacular. Highly, highly unusual, definitely one in a million. And then, the other thing is the trick is not to get trapped in status. I mean, if you're not oriented that way, that's easy. But there's some seductive things out there. And we both know organizations and people and even some of my early colleagues in the other company who got trapped in status and they never changed. They never grew. So, I think it's interesting. I think it's something to be not wary of, but definitely to be aware of because there's a lot of noise. There's more people at that level. And then, to stay focused on growth, to me, anyway, it's important to me to be in an environment and with other people who are also share that mindset. My family is that already, but then I found my work family. That has been critical, a critical factor in my growth and development. As always, Dan, insightful conversation. Thank you so much.
Dan Sullivan: Thank you, Shannon.