How The Best Respond To Changing Audiences And Events

Jeff Madoff: This is Jeffrey Madoff, and welcome to our podcast called “Anything and Everything” with my partner, Dan Sullivan.
 
Well, Dan, here we are for another episode of “Anything and Everything”, and true to our form, we started talking about it and then forgot to hit record, so...
 
Dan Sullivan: There’s more where that came from, so.
 
Jeff Madoff: That is true, yeah.
 
And you know, we were talking. Just about 10 days ago, when you were in Chicago with a group of people from Strategic Coach.
 
Dan Sullivan: We had 30 that night, by the way.
 
Jeff Madoff: Yeah. And actually there were members that had come to some of the previews.
 
Dan Sullivan: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.
 
We had a guy from New Jersey who had come to Philadelphia, Kishor, and he had done Philadelphia, and then he came back for opening night. He was there on the 14th for the opening night, and he loved it. He said he totally loved it. Yeah.
 
Jeff Madoff: Well, you know, we’ve been talking each episode recently. We’ve been talking about different stages of the play and all of that, and when you were in on Friday, you and Babs hosted a wonderful dinner, then we went to the theater, then we reconvened at the same restaurant afterwards.
 
Dan Sullivan: Afterwards. Yeah, we had about 3 hours of chatting, you know.
 
But one of the things I wanted at the post-performance is I wanted you to get a feel for what people had really gotten from being there for the two hours of the actual presentation. I was very pleased with the unique insights that came out.
 
But that’s a standard kind of methodology that we do in Strategic Coach, that “What was your thinking about, what happened to your thinking as you were going through this?” I thought you would enjoy that.
 
Jeff Madoff: I did. I did. I I wondered if it would have been the same statements if I wasn’t at the table.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think they were more directed because you were there, but they would have more or less the same thing, you know, what they got out of it and everything like that. I mean, worded slightly differently because you weren’t there, but because you weren’t there, they could direct them totally towards you.
 
But I just want to communicate to you that it’s a different kind of play, and I think that an obstacle that you’re running into with this play is that for probably last 10 years theater-goers and moviegoers aren’t used to a presentation being thoughtful.
 
Jeff Madoff: Expand on that. Dan Sullivan: Well, there’s a lot of razzmatazz and, you know, depending on people’s emotions but not on their brain, you know, to have a great performance. And right from the start, it’s a story, and you have a complete narrative that goes through from beginning till end. And I would say that people are not too used to that. “Oh, you you mean this play actually requires that you do some thinking to actually be part of the experience?” You have to think about things as you go along. Nothing wrong with that and you shouldn’t change anything, but I’m just saying that if you can get some review or something to just talk about the jump that you’ve made of putting out something that’s actually very, very thoughtful, you know. Jeff Madoff: Thank you.
 
Dan Sullivan: And historically thoughtful, you know, that this pulls together probably several decades of mid-century, 20th century historical realities and a specific reality, a specific reality of one person who was clearly…
 
I saw one of the things that your daughter Audrey pulled out, that this is a revolutionary. He wasn’t so much a revolutionary. He was a transformer.
 
I’m sort of getting a little bit tired of ‘revolution’ because revolutions usually end up where they began with just a different people in power over people.
 
Jeff Madoff: Group in charge. That’s right.
 
Dan Sullivan: Different people in charge. You know, same game but new people in charge.
 
But transforming is taking something to an entirely new level of value. The play totally does that. I mean, that’s a transformative play. It’s not a revolutionary play. It’s a transformative play.
 
Jeff Madoff: There is a comment in one of the reviews, actually, the Chicago Sun-Times that really nailed my intent. It was really interesting to read the closing paragraph.
 
I talked to Sheldon Epps, the director, about reviews, because he’s been reviewed 1000 times. I said, “Do you pay any attention to reviews?”
 
And he goes, “You know, some,” he said, “Some, you know, talked about the play they would have written if they were writing it.” And he said, “I don’t need to listen to that.” And he said, “If there’s the same comment that comes up from a number of people, well, that’s something possibly you want to address and see what that is. You’ve got to sort of take it all in, if you’re going to involve yourself in reviews.”
 
But like I was talking to a dear friend of mine earlier today who’s made his living in theater, he was telling me about Annette Benning, who I know, and actually Annette was his first wife, and he said Annette never reads her reviews. She doesn’t want what she’s doing at all affected by them, and she doesn’t read them.
 
Other actors read them to see if there’s notes. Other ones look for praise. Whatever, whatever. And my thing is, “Is my intent landing?” Having sat in the audience now in Chicago, not to mention so mention—so I’ll mention it, in Pennsylvania, and before that at the workshop-
 
Dan Sullivan: On the West side of New York.
 
Jeff Madoff: That’s right, that what has been consistent has been positive response, which is great.
 
But this review and I’ll just read you the end of it. It says “It is not hard to admire a show that succeeds in entertaining us even as it tackles so many serious issues, including racism, the American Dream, and the curveballs life throws at you. But to be honest, on the way out of the theater, all I could think about were Price’s glorious tunes running through my head.”
 
You know, I love that.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Show business, it’s show business.
 
Jeff Madoff: Yeah.
 
And the reason I loved it is my intent landed. I wanted to, of course, primarily to entertain. But I also was hoping to say something. And Sheldon’s Unique Ability, to use the Dan Sullivan term, is to translate those words into action on stage and theatricalize them. And that the commitment of the caste to this story was very gratifying.
 
And so, in those rare times—actually, it’s not rare with the audiences we’ve had—that come together and you get that sense that, “Wow, this is actually landing. They get it.” That’s a very gratifying response.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, I think this week or next week, you’ll start getting full house audiences.
 
I mean, as you say, I think all entertainment is a word of mouth. There’s a certain period where you can put a lot of marketing into it and get an impact just because of the marketing message that goes out there. But at a certain point, people see a disconnect between the marketing push and their own experience, and it’s yes or no. And the movie industry it’s on Friday afternoon, and it’s the first two hours and people are already doing it at the show. There’s “This is a dog,” you know, “Make sure you don’t spend any time at the weekend on this movie.” You know, it’s dead in the water, you know?
 
But theater is a different thing. And you know, my experience on Friday night was that live theater, especially musical theater, will always be the most compelling entertainment form.
 
Jeff Madoff: And that is why, do you think?
 
Dan Sullivan: So I put out a very profound statement and you want me to justify it? Is that what you’re—?
 
I thought you would say, “Gee, I just have to take a break because I really have to think about the impact of what you just-“
 
Jeff Madoff: I was bowled over by the profundity of it all.
 
Dan Sullivan: No, what I’m saying is because you know the risk factor for the performers. So there’s an edginess that they have to do it right, you know, according to their training and their rehearsal. They have to do it right, but they have to do it right in terms of their relationship with the audience. Which is not true with movies. It’s not true with anything that’s recorded beforehand. There is no catalytic effect going on between the performers and the audience once you’re into live anything, but then live theater, which really requires a massive amount of preparation ahead of time. You know, dancing, singing, working together as a team, individual performance. It’s a tightrope.
 
Jeff Madoff: Well, it is. It is and I’ll, I’ll go into a little bit of about what that tightrope was for me, because we were opening on Wednesday the 14th of June and that Saturday Saint couldn’t go on.
 
Dan Sullivan: The following Saturday.
 
Jeff Madoff: No, the one before opening. So we didn’t know what it was. We had to cancel performances on Sunday and Monday. We managed, through our PR person Kathy Taylor, who’s fabulous.
 
He lost his voice, we thought was his vocal strain. And, you know, if you see the show as you have, he does some things with his voice that are like next-level.
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, first, yeah, I mean he doesn’t, you know, it’s a role where you can’t hold back, but it requires an actor who doesn’t hold back.
 
Jeff Madoff: That’s right. That’s right.
 
And what it was was that Chicago had the highest pollen count in its recorded history, and it wasn’t vocal strain, but his vocal cords were inflamed from the pollen.
 
So we didn’t know that, you know, on Saturday or Sunday, and our PR person has a relationship with the doctor for the Lyric Opera and Drury Lane theater and all that, and he’s the guy that you go to. You know, it’s like the doctor who can keep you on the field during a pro football game or something.
 
Meanwhile, my job, in talking to Sheldon about it, with the director, talking to my executive producers, “We’ve got to protect opening night.” You know? “What can we do? We got to protect opening night.” I said, “I don’t think it’s worth having the preview performances on Sunday and Monday. We’ve got to preserve him, and hopefully we can get him into the doctor.”
 
And anyhow, that all happened. So we canceled those performances with the goal is you don’t want him going in rusty for the premiere, which is Wednesday, so we had one more preview on Tuesday. So this was Saturday. What happens on Sunday, end of day, Donnie loses her voice. She’s the one that plays Sister Rosetta and Ma Nora, the voodoo woman.
 
It’s like, “Oh man, you know, is Saint gonna go on? Is she gonna go on?” And we had understudies for them, but, you know, this was like, “Oh my God, what are we going to do?” Because you don’t want to go on with your understudy opening night.
 
And just a little bit of theater definition. There’s two kinds of roles. There are understudies and there are swings. An understudy is someone who can cover for the lead actors. And they only have to cover for that. One lead. A swing may have to cover for five different people in the ensemble. So if there’s the same actor who plays Lloyd’s father, Don Robey, one of the crap-shooters in the game, and something else, that understood he’s got to step in and do those parts. So a swing may have to cover a number of parts.
 
So you know, we had an understudy for Saint, who’s great. It’s actually the guy that opened the show, Donterrio, doing “Jump Children”. He’s fantastic. And we had a swing covering for Donnie. But you know our concern was opening night. We wanted to have everybody in the best position.
 
So to say that those were sleepless nights, you know, I mean, there’s nothing I could do about it, but it was like, “Oh, man, thank goodness everything worked out.” They were able to perform and that was great.
 
Dan Sullivan: I bet you were happy to see Tuesday.
 
Jeff Madoff: Yes, I was, and that they were able to do their part on. Actually, Donnie did not go on on Tuesday, but she came on on Wednesday for the opening.
 
And the woman who was her understudy, Nissi, was fantastic, and I’d never seen her cover. And that’s another thing about the professionalism of these actors.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, but it also tells you why it’s the greatest performance art.
 
Well, first of all, because it’s not one person, it’s a whole bunch of people that are on the tightrope. It’s a complete company, you know, it’s a complete company.
 
If you have a single performers, and you know, I mean, then there’s its own version of the entertainment value, but I think people even with no knowledge about theater realize that it takes an enormous amount of preparation for everybody on stage to kind of know what the teamwork is required to pull it off, you know.
 
But it was just something I was reminded of. I said, “This is why this is the most compelling performance art, the most compelling form of entertainment.”
 
Jeff Madoff: Well, I certainly agree with you that it is. And it’s so interesting because, you know, I’m having to wear two hats: One is the book-writer and the other as the lead producer. So then the business decisions come in. You know, it costs money to cancel something because everybody still gets paid. But you’ve got to make that decision of what’s going to be best for the enterprise as a whole.
 
We got through opening night. And we got through the end of that week, and then there were two more people that were out, and we had the understudies—and I was there and and seeing these performances, and that started the week after you saw it. And the thing was so great with how talented these understudies were, how well they covered for it.
 
And we had had an illness, actually, earlier on, too, where understudy had to step in for the tech rehearsals, previews, and then the opening of the play. And then that person was able to come back in for the performance you saw on Friday.
 
But you know it’s like you don’t realize when you’re outside that perimeter just how much stuff is going on. And having been through COVID, and, you know, as you know, we had to shut down in Pennsylvania a week early.
 
Dan Sullivan: Third week. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 
Mr. Madoff, I’d like to introduce you to this subject. This is called life.
 
Jeff Madoff: That’s right. That’s right. That’s right.
 
Dan Sullivan: It’s called real life. It’s called. You’ve read about life, you’ve watched movies on life. This is actually life. This is the real deal.
 
“Oh, I don’t like this,” you know, “it’s not predictable.”
 
Jeff Madoff: Yeah, you want predictable? It ain’t this business.
 
Dan Sullivan: It ain’t life.
 
Jeff Madoff: That’s for sure. No, that is that is for sure.
 
And then, you know, we fortunately got fantastic reviews, fantastic live audience response. Everything is going great. Getting more press, really good press.
 
Dan Sullivan: You know, and they’re influenced, too. You know, that whole part of the world is influenced by other people in their industry, and if you get a momentum going of great reviews, then it influences the entire review industry.
 
Jeff Madoff: Yeah, it’s interesting because there are, as Sheldon said, there’s different agendas with different reviewers. Some are very insightful and have things that, even if you don’t agree, it’s worth paying attention and lending credence to them because you may not agree, but it’s a well-thought-out review.
 
There are others that are you wonder what play they saw. I’m not just talking about this play.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, I think some of them are into the play and some of them are into themselves.
 
Jeff Madoff: That’s right. That’s right.
 
Dan Sullivan: You know, it’s very interesting. I have a client who is a 10 year cowboy at one of the biggest ranches in North America, which is actually in Canada, in the province of British Columbia and it’s got five different temperate zones, you know, where they start and then they go up.
 
Two cowboys take 3000 head of cattle out in April and they come back in September, and they have to account for each of the 3000. And this is to fatten them up. This is fattening up the steers. And I asked him once, I said, “What’s the most crucial thing about the drive?”
 
And he says, “Well, it isn’t me and it’s not my partner. It’s the dog you have who knows who the lead steer is.” The dog immediately gets the lead steer going in the right direction and all the other cattle follow behind. And they also patrol when you get to a grazing area, they patrol against predators, you know.
 
So he said, “Probably,” he said, “I would rather lose my partner than lose the dog.”
 
But reviewers are like dogs who know where the lead steer is, you know, and the Sun-Times really did it for you. You know, I mean, Chicago, you know, Chicago’s got a lot of magazines and newspapers that review the entertainment world. That was really great, because you can use the words of that reviewer and just drive the momentum now.
 
Jeff Madoff: Well, it it’s so interesting, you know, why is word of mouth effective? And I don’t care what business you’re in, I think it’s the most effective way to sell anything.
 
Dan Sullivan: Because we know the person who’s telling us.
 
Jeff Madoff: Right. That’s right.
 
Dan Sullivan: We trust the judgment. I mean you do or you don’t. But if you trust the judgment of the individual, then you go on trust of their judgment to go forward.
 
You know, I mean we’ve talked about this on previous podcasts about big data and all that stuff, you know. And I said, “You know, big data, you know, if it’s good week, they got part of what happened yesterday right? But they don’t give you any indication whatsoever what’s going to happen tomorrow.”
 
Jeff Madoff: And along with that, there’s the—I don’t know what to call them. So this is the thing that came up in our meetings. The agency is very big on putting QR codes on everything. I said I’ve done informal surveys, wildly informal. No science. But whenever we’re going to restaurants that have QR codes instead of menus-
 
Dan Sullivan: I feel inconvenience.
 
Jeff Madoff: Me too. Well, by the way, that’s true the vast majority of the time, regardless of age. It’s not that we’re older and don’t like it, they’re just a pain in the ass.
 
Dan Sullivan: What, you can’t print a menu?
 
Jeff Madoff: Right, yeah. Yeah, you want to hold something, and even the menu, the style of it, all of that is part of the brand of the restaurant.
 
Dan Sullivan: I like menus.
 
Jeff Madoff: Me, too.
 
Dan Sullivan: It’s like album covers.
 
Jeff Madoff: Exactly, exactly. That’s exactly right. That’s a great comparison.
 
So I’m saying, “You’re telling me that when you’re, you’ve got us on a billboard coming in from the airport to downtown Chicago, and you go by a billboard 65, 70 miles an hour…”
 
Dan Sullivan: And you’re shooting the QR code.
 
Jeff Madoff: Yeah, of course you are.
 
It’s like, what’s the point?
 
Dan Sullivan: [Makes police siren noise.]
 
Jeff Madoff: And the commercials, you know, put it on there.
 
So I said, “Has anybody ever shot a QR code off a TV screen and used it?”
 
Anyhow. So now we’re into it and I said, “So you guys were calling for this QR code and how important you thought it was. And it’s trackable. I get that it’s trackable and all that. What have you yielded from it?
 
Silence.
 
And it’s just another gimmick, and people are using it ‘cause other people are using it until they realize it’s useless.
 
Dan Sullivan: Oh yeah, it’s like the term “AI”. Yeah, something-AI, you know? I mean, SnickersAI, you know, I mean, it’s a fashion statement.
 
Who does that? I mean, I’m looking for something anyway, and the QR code immediately takes me to that. You know, there’s some convenience to it. But I’m fairly resistant to technological malarkey. It’s a fashion statement. It’s not really any kind of assistance whatsoever.
 
Jeff Madoff: I agree, I agree, although I think that everybody, not everybody, but the vast majority of agencies and so on, like recommend you put QR codes on this. Then other people saying say, “Well, they’re all doing it.” Yeah, but does it work? Why should I do it?
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, I I thought positioning was not doing what the other people are doing.
 
Jeff Madoff: Well, that’s right. That’s right.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Well, but that’s not the big deal. I mean, the QR code or not QR code.
 
You know, I mean, one of the big things is you need sell-out audiences and you need more funding right now, because you’re burning through the cash right now. Every day, there’s, you know, the flight’s leaving, we got 600 seats.
 
Jeff Madoff: That’s right. That’s right.
 
Dan Sullivan: And we’d like them to be paying customers.
 
Jeff Madoff: That’s right, of course. And you know, we’re fortunately fully subscribed for this round, which is great. And depending on what our next step is we’ll be opening up for another round of funding, but right now we’re good, yeah.
 
You know the whole dynamic-
 
Dan Sullivan: By the way, Babs told me just before I went on here that “Tell Lloyd that were first into the next round.”
 
Jeff Madoff: That’s great. That’s great. Tell Adam you mean?
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, you tell Adam.
 
Jeff Madoff: You’re telling Lloyd.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Tell him to get an assistant who helps you with the tax work. You know.
 
Jeff Madoff: Well, thank you.
 
Dan Sullivan: I said, “Adam, the thing that’s holding things up is I don’t want to go through all the complexities of the tax requirements and the tax compliance I just, I just want to write a check and send it off to you.”
 
Jeff Madoff: I want you to know, Dan, that anytime you have that urge, I will not put you through that paperwork. I’ll happily, I’ll happily accept it.
 
But yeah, thank you so much for that. It’s really interesting because, as we’ve talked about, it’s another business, and this satisfying part to me, the most satisfying, there’s two-
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, each round is a company.
 
Jeff Madoff: Exactly. That’s correct.
 
Dan Sullivan: Got a different incorporation, it’s got a different tax structure and everything. I mean, you’re now in your third company, that is the Chicago event. I think that’s it.
 
Jeff Madoff: That’s right. Yeah.
 
Dan Sullivan: And then what follows will be another company.
 
Jeff Madoff: That’s right. That’s right.
 
You know, it’s just so interesting, because there’s the creative process of putting together the play. Working with the talents and the talents working with each other. I love that, and that was almost every day. We’re working six days a week. And six days a week for six weeks. I loved every second of it. Because we’re taking something good and the goal is to make it great.
 
Dan Sullivan: Oh yeah.
 
Jeff Madoff: And if you’d have told me how many iterations we would do between that first, you know, the workshop, which I felt, you know, that was-
 
Dan Sullivan: That was super.
 
Jeff Madoff: Yeah, but we’ve gone so far beyond that, you know?
 
And it’s an iterative process. And creativity is very much like scientific method, and then the proof is when you put it in front of audiences and the response that you hope to get, you get, you know, and you get it audience after audience. But there’s always surprises, because every audience is different. That’s kind of interesting. But there are these moments that are really cool that happen.
 
Give you a quick example. There’s the scene where Lloyd is talking to Don Robey. You know, he booked him in Texas. And he said, “Get your ass on that plane.”
 
And he said, you know, “My band, they’re they’re afraid of getting on the plane. They say it ain’t natural for a man to fly. What happens to that thing falls out of the sky?”
 
And he said, “You’re dead. That’s what happens.”
 
Now I know that, because I’ve seen it so many times, it’s become the confidence and the capability because you’ve repeated it and repeated it, that I know that that line “You’re dead” is going to get a laugh. But, I said to the actor, “Wait a beat for the laughter to go down and then say, “That’s what happens.” You’re gonna get a second laugh. “So right now you’re burying the laugh because you’re delivering the second part of the line when they’re still laughing from the first part.”
 
So he did it the next preview, and then he comes up to me after and says, “OK, I’m listening to you from now on.” You know and moments like that are just fun. You know, they’re just really, really fun, but there are things that are, you know, much more work, like how you shift the scene or you do something else. But it’s this constant—it’s like, you know, creating a sculpture, if you will.
 
Dan Sullivan: Oh yeah, “get rid of that which is not the statue”.
 
Jeff Madoff: That’s right. Yeah, that’s right.
 
Dan Sullivan: The Michelangelo line.
 
Jeff Madoff: That’s right. And, you know, cut away everything that doesn’t look like David. You know?
 
And there’s something that’s really gratifying, and we’ve talked about it in terms of the arts and we’ve talked about it in terms of business, is a collaboration where the people involved in that become more invested in the project.
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, the other thing is they do something with the raw material that you didn’t really envision.
 
Like Saint Aubin, the lead in the play, he’s at another level as a performer.
 
Jeff Madoff: He is.
 
Dan Sullivan: There’s this professor from Yale who’s written this book on Shakespeare, and he says the problem with Shakespeare is a lot of the characters that he develops are way bigger than the play.
 
Jeff Madoff: Yeah, they’ve become archetypes, like Romeo and Juliet.
 
Dan Sullivan: Right. Well and Hamlet and Iago and-
 
Jeff Madoff: King Lear and all, yes.
 
Dan Sullivan: Falstaff. You know, they’ve all become bigger.
 
And he said, “We have to appreciate that although Shakespeare was a phenomenal play-writer, his full enjoyment was in where the characters went that surprised him.”
 
Jeff Madoff: I get that one of the things that Saint does that is really cool is, depending on the audience-
 
Dan Sullivan: He’ll go out and do high fives with them.
 
Jeff Madoff: Yes, or he’ll look at somebody and say, “You know what I’m talking about.” You know, and it always gets a response, because I hadn’t heard this before, but it’s a knowledge that I didn’t have, but it made perfect sense to me when I heard it.
 
When I was talking about interacting with the audience and Sheldon said to me, “The audience is your scene partner. You’re trying to make them laugh. You’re trying to make them listen. You’re trying to make them think. You’re trying to make them cry. Whatever. They’re the scene partner.”
 
And you know, that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re breaking that fourth wall, but you’re considering them in what you’re doing.
 
In a few of these places where Saint is talking to the audience, his level of interaction and personalizing it depends on the energy he’s getting, and what informs his performance.
 
Which is very cool, because you’re never going to get exactly the same performance every night. And that’s what makes it cool and exciting.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s the unpredictable, innovative part of live theater.
 
There was an interview when Tony Bennett was about 80. He was performing here in Toronto. The interviewer says, “What gets you the most enjoyment?”
 
And he said, “It’s going out for the 1st 10 or 15 minutes and finding out who the audience is that night.” And then he said, “I’ve trained my band, that there’s no set order in which we’re going to play the songs.” And he says, “I’ve work sign language for them, or subtle cues that tell them what the next number is.” And he said, “We have five times as much material as you can do in any performance, and so they have to be very knowledgeable about the full body of work.” And he said, “All I’m doing is just designing the performance for that night. And he says, “I mean, at this stage of my career, everybody who shows up as a fan.” And so he said, “That’s taken care of. But fan of what in particular that they like me singing.” You know?
 
So it’s really, really interesting. But, you know, he started singing in 1946, so, you know, 46 is 54 + 23. That’s 77 years, you know.
 
But the interesting thing is that interaction. I mean, you’re a great performer or not a great performer, totally based on how you interact with the audience.
 
Jeff Madoff: Right. That’s right.
 
Dan Sullivan: And if you consider the audience a partner, you’ll be increasingly a great performer.
 
Jeff Madoff: Oh yes, and especially a play that allows that kind of interaction. And you see it with great comedians. You see it with great singers, you know. You see how people can engage an audience.
 
And you know, our talks also often relate to entrepreneurship and business. And again, it’s the same thing, you know, if you’re going to be presenting or pitching an idea, you need to engage your audience, which means, first of all, like you were saying about Tony Bennett, you gotta know who you’re talking to.
 
Dan Sullivan: Oh yeah.
 
Jeff Madoff: You know, who’s your audience? Because if you’re not paying attention to that, if you think you can go into any room and say the same thing-
 
A good friend of mine was the CEO of AMC Networks. He was telling me how he went to a hotel as a conference center and there were a bunch of businesses, and he realized 20 minutes into a meeting, he was in the wrong room. And then he sees the sign that it’s for some insurance company. So he found the right room and he said, “You know, substantively, there was no difference in what we were saying.” And he said, “I often think that I could walk into any of these rooms, start speaking, and people would think that I belong.”
 
“We’re up against unique challenges. You know, there’s unique challenges in the marketplace. It needs innovative thinking needs thinking out-of-the-box. We’re pushing the edge of the new paradigm.” And he went through all this corporate blabber, and he said, “You could do it in any room.” And he said, “I’ve been thinking of doing.”
 
I said, “Josh, I love that.”
 
And he said, “I swear, Jeff, it’s the same thing being said in every room didn’t make any difference.” We’re talking about television, you know, streaming services. They were talking about insurance. And until I looked over again-
 
Dan Sullivan: It doesn’t matter, it’s all the same thing.
 
Jeff Madoff: It’s great. It was great.
 
Dan Sullivan: And actually, if you are in the wrong room, you’re the only one that knows it, so you’ll have a little bit of extra energy for the performance. You know, you won’t just mail it in. I mean, you got the risk that somebody will find you out, you know.
 
You know, there’s a great story. I’m on Quora. I like Quora because you can specialize, and mine is World War II. I like World War II commentary. And there was a story. You know, the one German general during the Second World War who was pretty well admired on all sides was Rommel. You know.
 
Jeff Madoff: The Desert Fox.
 
Dan Sullivan: There’s a great story where he’s out driving, and of course, when you’re in the desert, you can be anywhere and they come across what they see as a group of tents and they come up to this cell, and there’s all these tents and he could tell right off the bat that they’re hospital tents. And he says, “Stop, stop,” he says, “I always want to talk to the wounded.” And he gets out and he goes in, and he’s going down bed by bed and he’s shaking their hands and saying things. but they’re very, very quiet. They don’t really respond. And he gets about eight person down and the wounded man looks at him, he said, in English, he says, “General, this is a British hospital tent.” And Rommel says, “Oh, I guess I should be going then. Well, it’s nice to meet you all.” And he walks out, gets in his car, and they drive off.
 
But he was basically going in to comfort British wounded soldiers, you know, but didn’t realize it till when I’m said, “General, this is a British…”
 
Yeah, but it’s a great story, you know, and not staggered or anything, he says, “Oh, oh, well, I guess I should be going.” And he walks right back out.
 
It’s just a great story of someone’s stage presence. He’s got stage presence, and it became a legendary story. You know it was told in all armies. And think about how that incident, though, changed the enemy’s perception of who this general was.
 
Jeff Madoff: No, it’s fascinating.
 
You know, well, once somebody relates they’re no longer The Other, and they become a human.
 
Dan Sullivan: And he was known for being observant of the rules of war, which break down when things get particularly vicious. But he basically upheld these, but was a good general. I mean, he was strategically, and he didn’t didn’t want the enemy to win.
 
Anyway, but I thought it was a great legendary story of someone who is still himself in spite of the circumstances.
 
You know, I remember when Babs and I first got on board financially with the play, which is probably five years now, you said, “This is very, very risky. And this is not a good investment if you’re looking for a more or less assured return.” And I just want you to know that our return on investment has already been 10 times what the checks were.
 
Jeff Madoff: Well, thank you. That’s why I’m hoping to get you to write larger checks.
 
But no, thank you for saying that.
 
Dan Sullivan: The experience has been an enormous return on investment.
 
Jeff Madoff: Well, thank you.
 
And I have to say I’m very fortunate with the investors I have because they have all enjoyed the journey.
 
Dan Sullivan: They’re not schmucks.
 
Jeff Madoff: Yeah. Exactly. That’s another way of putting it. And you’re absolutely right.
 
Dan Sullivan: Or the endless other words that you could use.
 
Jeff Madoff: That’s right. But, you know, thank you for that, and I appreciate it.
 
And that means a lot because, you know, everybody’s rooting for it. And each step along the way, they have enjoyed being a part of it and witnessing the process and all that.
 
When you were talking about Tony Bennett, and talking about Rommel—two people you don’t usually have in the same sentence.
 
Dan Sullivan: It may be at first, actually.
 
Jeff Madoff: It may be. It may be. And who Rommel was and who Tony Bennett was. They were who they are because, you know, when you talk about a person’s being who they are and the essence of that person, that’s the stuff that doesn’t seem to go away. If you’re as present as they are for so many years in their lives in terms of what they’re doing?
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, and they’re hyper-focused too. Their life is hyper-focused. I mean, it’s why the things that you become obsessed in life, you’re hopeful that you can remember them when you can’t remember anything else.
 
Jeff Madoff: Right. No, you’re right
 
Dan Sullivan: I hope that when all else is gone, this is the part that I can still.
 
Well, I see that you know, I mean, I’m noticing recently that I’ve got good names recovery, but I’ve got the alphabet trick. I can remember the person’s face, and I can remember their stories, and I run through the alphabet. Well, first of all, it’s never TUVWXYZ saying cut off that part of the alphabet, you know, and you just go and you say, “Is it B, is it C?”, and usually I’ll get it within about a minute. I’ll get their first name or the last name and then I’m cool.
 
But on the other hand, my memory of the Coach tools is flawless, going back 34 years, you know, the stuff we do in the Program.
 
Jeff Madoff: Well, you know, like Tony Bennett-
 
Dan Sullivan: That’s my performance arts-
 
Jeff Madoff: That’s right. That’s right. And that’s what’s interesting, because it’s also a memory you keep reinforcing every time you do it.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. And the other thing is I delegate memory more and more. I have people around me, and I said, “I’m not going to remember this. So you remember it for me.” You know, just delegate it.
 
I’m going through a brain reprogramming program right now. If you take a brain scan, there’s things to be improved. So I’ve been going through this program, and the person who got me into it said, “You know, one thing you’re going to find is that you’re going to start getting emotional about your senses again.” And he says, “You’ll notice that one of the senses, the main senses…” And it’s happened so far with two senses, one is music, the sound of music. And the other one is visual, especially looking at nature. I’ve just gotten so much more enjoyment out of…
 
I listen to Pandora all the time, especially instrumental jazz. And I’m sitting there and I say, “I’ve heard this a hundred times, but I’m getting things out of it that I hadn’t before, and it’s emotional.” And the same thing when spring happened this year. And it’s really lush this year. It’s really lush because we had a lot of water over the, over the winter, and everything is just extraordinary, you know, and I’m feeling that.
 
The other thing is that I’ve been chemically enhanced for my sleeping performance at night, and I’m committed to getting off sleep meds. And I have Adderall during the day and I’m committed to getting over that in a year, and I’m about three weeks into the program and I’m down half the previous… And what I’ve noticing the other night and I said, “Gee, I feel sleepy. And it feels really good. I feel sleepy.” I told the doctor I’m working with, I said, “You know, I forgot what a nice pleasure feeling sleepy is,” because the Adderall during the daytime is an upper, and the sleep medicine at night time is a downer, so I’d be up up, up, up, take the sleep medicine down, down, down, down. Then you wake up the next morning then and it’s down, up, but there’s no “sleepy” in-between. You know, so…
 
Jeff Madoff: Yeah, there’s something that’s really kind of wonderful surrendering to sleep. When you talk about being sleepy and if you’re in a situation where actually you can then just answer that call and go out for a while.
 
Dan Sullivan: Oh yeah, yeah.
 
Jeff Madoff: Yeah, it’s really nice. I mean, during a lot of my stay in Chicago, when I was doing rewrites, I mean, because we were working constantly, and trying things and rewriting, I’d get up in the morning, go through emails, then go to the theater and come home from the theater, work out, and then start writing and get to bed like one or two in the morning and I’d be up at seven.
 
If I get six hours of uninterrupted sleep, I’m fine. Sometimes I wasn’t getting that, but there were also times where I could go and just take a nap for half hour.
 
Dan Sullivan: At that stage of the project you’re on adrenaline. I mean, you’re just pumping adrenaline.
 
Jeff Madoff: That’s right. I’m pumping adrenaline. That is true. And then there’s also, you know, when you get hit with certain things, like whether it was, “By the way, your lead has lost his voice three days before opening.” It’s like “Oh God,” you know, that kind of a thing.
 
And of course intellectually, I know there’s nothing I can do about it. But still, it’s a concern, you know? How is this going to impact on things?
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, the other thing, as you get closer to success, you’re also vividly more aware of what failure looks like.
 
Jeff Madoff: Well, that’s right. And you know, it’s also interesting, because with something like this, which is high visibility, you know that also means that the things that don’t work are high visibility too.
 
Thanks for joining us today on our show, “Anything and Everything”. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend.
 
For more about me and my work, visit acreativecareer.com and madoffproductions.com. To learn more about Dan and Strategic Coach, visit strategiccoach.com.