The Incredible Healing Potential Of Stem Cells, with Timothy Nelson

Dan Sullivan: Hi, this is Dan Sullivan and I've got Steve Krein here with our Free Zone Frontier podcast, and we just had a really moving and remarkable first, so make sure you see the first episode of this particular interview with Dr. Tim Nelson, who is, I found, the most captivating experience that I had on the longevity trip with Peter Diamandis. And this took place in medical clinics and institutes and had those who came and gave us an actual presentation in San Francisco and San Diego, and this is August of '22, so very, very recent. Tim, your career and the career of this scientific breakthrough really, really were enabled by a scientific breakthrough, which will be looked back as certainly in the same range with Edison and with Einstein and with the cracking of the atom and everything. Can you just talk about those days and fill them in? What a remarkable new future got created in a very short period of time as soon as this breakthrough occurred.
 
Tim Nelson: Thanks, Dan. Great to be with you, Dan and Steve. The world of regenerative medicine is so exciting today as we sit here, and it's kind of fun to replay the last decade, decade and a half of how we've gotten here, that this concept of stem cells means a lot of things to a lot of different people. There's lots of different types of stem cells, there's lots of different avenues on regenerative medicine, but in my opinion, it's Shinya Yamanaka, Jamie Thompson, who discovered induced pluripotent stem cells more than a decade ago and now has led to the Nobel Prize with Shinya Yamanaka. This is the catalyst that has taken the concept of stem cells, regenerative medicine and put it on the map permanently for future medicine and future generations. Basically, the idea is that we all remember the days when human embryonic stem cells were first discovered, and these cells had the potential to give rise to every single cell in the body, every single cell.
 
But the challenge was, you either had to create or destroy a human embryo to capture those cells, and that ethically would never be a solved problem scientifically. That was an ethical conundrum that just was an unsolvable problem for society until Shinya Yamanaka and soon thereafter, Jamie Thompson, also showed the world that you can take an ordinary cell, an ordinary piece of skin cell, and you can retrain it, reconvert it to look and feel like an embryonic stem cell. And that's called a pluripotent cell, and they dubbed it "induced pluripotent" because they're bioengineering the pluripotency capacity. Let me remind you, pluripotency is a unique feature that means every single cell in your body, a hundred trillion cells in your body can be derived from that single pluripotent cell. It's hard scientifically to comprehend what I just said, but that's the truth.
 
Steve Krein: Can I just pause right there? I want to dig in a little bit, and if I was to try to explain that to a sixth grader, how would you explain that?
 
Tim Nelson: The idea is that you can take an ordinary cell that is mature, old, and ugly, and you can send it back in time, literally send it back in time so that it not only remembers what it was like to be an infant pluripotent cell, but it acts and behaves like an infant pluripotent cell. You literally are taking the chronologically 50-year-old cell in your body and you're sending it literally back in time because if time is measured on the biological clock with the telomeres, the end of the DNA that is the buffer DNA. The longer your telomeres, the younger. The shorter, the older you are. The telomeres get chewed up as you age. When you send this old skin cell back in time, you actually grow the telomeres. You chronologically are reversing the age of the cell.
 
There's no concept in biological world that we've ever had that's similar to this. And now that you have it back, it looks, feels, and it more importantly behaves like an embryonic stem cell like you were when you were three weeks old in your mother's body. We now have that in the lab and the potential to give rise to literally any cell type of your body. That is theoretically not a theory, that's a practical reality of what we're sitting on right now. We have done this on hundreds of patients, hundreds and hundreds of patients. We've done it on three-day-old babies. We've done it on a couple that was chronologically a hundred years of age, and their skin cells were converted back into this induced pluripotent state. We've been on a mission to find the pathway to make this a commercial grade product that is clinically used and clinically regenerated. In our case, our focus is the heart muscle.
 
Steve Krein: What was the... We'll come back in another time and dig into the science because there's some fascinating things you mentioned almost matter of factly that are breakthroughs, I know, but when you talk about that 100-year-old couple, what did you do, and what was the result?
 
Tim Nelson: We start with a biopsy of your skin. It's about the size of a pencil eraser. We cut that up in the lab. We grow out the skin cells, just like if you cut yourself and you had a scar on your skin, your skin heals. That same process plays out in the lab in a cell culture play, and the cells will grow out in the lab. We get those cells growing and we get them happy, we get them well fed, and then we hit them with reprogramming factors. The Yamanaka factors, the Nobel laureate technology. We didn't invent it. We are leveraging and licensing the technology that Shinya and his team developed. When you put those reprogramming factors on the cells, it takes many, many weeks and months for those cells to be reprogrammed back into a pluripotent cell.
 
Steve Krein: Which means what when you look at it?
 
Tim Nelson: You look under the microscope and they fundamentally change morphology. They fundamentally change. You can visually detect the cells have been converted. You physically pick those cells, you physically expand them. It's kind of like growing hostas. Every time it grows big enough, you break it up and plant it into smaller plants, and you keep growing the hostas until you've got a hundred-acre field of hostas growing that came from one plant. Then, when you get them at that point, and these cells can in theory grow and divide indefinitely because they're pluripotent cells, you then can harvest some of those cells and start training them to become cardiac muscles. All of that happens in the cell culture under a microscope at the initial stages, and then it gets scaled into bioreactors that are basically a liter jar volume that we're growing this at scale.
 
Steve Krein: How do you explain pluripotent cells?
 
Tim Nelson: Pluripotent cells are the cells that can give rise to every single cell in your body. That's the definition. That's in contrast to multipotent cells such as hematopoietic stem cells. There are stem cells in your body that can give rise to the blood cells. Those are multipotent. They can do multiple things, but they can't do everything. Pluripotent means that it literally can give rise to any cell in your body if you give it the right differentiation cues.
 
Dan Sullivan: One way from a practical standpoint, to use another analogy, I'm looking around the room here and I have a lot of wood here that's actually plastic. I have cloth here that looks like plastic. I have what looks like a basket made out of plant material, but it's actually made out of plastic and there's probably 20 and it would be able to take all those plastic products and convert them back to the oil that got it all started.
 
Tim Nelson: Hundred percent. That's a hundred percent right. Once you get that oil back, that starting material, now it's an engineering feat to be able to put that into new products. And the product we're going to create for the world is the heart muscle product from this technology.
 
Steve Krein: Your collaboration with Todd and Karen began, has morphed into now a much bigger collaboration between, you said 60 people?
 
Tim Nelson: Yes.
 
Steve Krein: How big does this become within your world of collaboration? How can others plug into it and collaborate with you either on the area you're focused on with congenital heart disease or other areas that are going to benefit from what you've just discovered?
 
Tim Nelson: Collaboration's a key word. I know that's a big word for the Free Zone Frontier and all the things you guys talk about, and it is innate to what we did. Sometimes, you look back and you look at things you said and things you thought and realize how powerful they turned out to become, and you didn't have the wisdom at the time of how important they were. But one thing that we said at the early time is that we don't actually care which technology wins, meaning which technology proves to regenerate the heart muscle. What we care about is which technology wins. We don't care which one wins, we just want to know which one wins. In other words, meaning we want to be able to test as many technologies and products and prove with data that this technology is the best technology and then be able to have that data inspire us to bring further collaborations together to be able to make that a reality.
 
We didn't have a technology that we were wedded to or that we wanted to force. We started the ones that we knew the best. But the collaboration of HeartWorks and our multi-institution partnerships right now is really about doing the clinical trials to get the data to be able to know which product is the best and can decrease cost and improve outcomes for congenital heart disease. It really wasn't a competition at any way, shape, or form as we typically would have in an academic setting. We really, truly wanted to find what would help Gabrielle better than anything else. That was our focus. Because of that collaborative mindset, we now have 11 world-leading pediatric hospitals across North America that are partnered with us doing the clinical trials. When I say partnered, I want to make sure everybody understands what I mean by that. We are not paying these 11 hospitals to do the clinical trials like a large company or pharmaceutical would historically do. We said, "We have built know-how assets of regenerative medicine that we believe can improve the outcomes of your patients. We want you to be part of that product development clinical trials, and that will create a halo effect for patients to come to you because they want to be part of the leading edge, the hope of what's in the future." And we were able to sell that, if you will, to the hospital leadership.
 
They actually covered the cost of our clinical trials because there's value created with them being part of this network of product development for congenital heart disease. That marketing, that brand across hospitals in a collaborative way... Let me pause there, Steve, because I know you get this better than most. To get hospitals that compete to now be collaborative is what we have accomplished by creating an asset and a clinical platform that we can bring to them. We as a club can tackle the problem of congenital heart disease and they work together. We have a remarkable monthly meeting with leaders from each of these hospitals where we problem-solve collaboratively. It's not hard to get people to work together when you have the right vision, the right mission, and the assets that bring value to them.
 
Steve Krein: You've created a moonshot. I'm fascinated by how you did such a multi-dimensional puzzle here, fitting together the initial backers to then the collaborators at the hospitals, to the scientists, and to what I think is quite frankly an extraordinary—even though it's U.S., it's going to globally impact people—a global collaboration that's a model. Most of the people listening to this are entrepreneurs, if not in Strategic Coach and Free Zone, want to be. They're going to get the notion of the part of this ironically that's going to in interest people the most is not the science. It's what you've built around your vision. I think it's fascinating to see how, again, casually you're like, "We just get together every month." But that kind of rhythm is part of the critical aspect of collaboration where you had everybody with the right mindset.
 
You had "batteries-included" relationships on your team and in your original support. Then you found battery-included partners who can align with your vision, can benefit from what you've put together, and it sounds like you made the criteria willingness to step up, do it, fund it, and be a part of it and share. I'm wondering who didn't make it along the way? I want to hear from, whether it be 2010, '15 or recently, you don't have to name names, but where were the people or organizations that fell off because they weren't willing to do what you just so eloquently outlined as a 12-year journey to get here?
 
Tim Nelson: You're spot on. Let me back up. There has to be some intrinsic motivation for each of these partners to want to be at the table. The dynamic that we recognize in the congenital heart world is, follow the money. There's money being made, and there's risk and reward in everything that we do. Let me give you insight to the pediatric cardiac surgical world. There are a lot of programs—I'll even publicly say, too many programs in North America—that will do open-heart surgery in pediatric cases. That wasn't the case 15 years ago. There were centers of excellence that did high volume and because in part... I will argue this is debatable, but I'll throw it out there... Because these cases are profitable, hospitals have made the decision to expand the cases of surgical volume and take on these cases.
 
What happens is it dilutes out the rare disease into too many clinical centers, diluting them to not being centers of excellence anymore. This creates not only poor outcomes for low volume programs, but it also threatens the excellence of high volume programs that were there a decade ago. This was a great lesson learned in the entrepreneurial way. I said, "Look, what we're doing, we can help the small volume programs because we can bring a technology and we can prop up the small guy to be more relevant in the sea of competition." It was Bob Shaddy who was a chair at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia that heard me talk. He stood up in the back and said, "Are you willing to collaborate?" Nobody in their right mind in front of 400 colleagues would say no to Bob Shaddy at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.
 
But in the most authentic way, I thought it was bullshit because there's no way I could bring any value to Bob Shaddy in Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. We had a cup of coffee, turned into an evening dinner, turned into many conversations. Bob Shaddy and Children's Hospital of Philadelphia became the first consortium member site, and it was the biggest player in the field because he explained that they are at risk of being diluted out when too many people do this so they need to have centers of excellence. My paradigm shift was immediate, and I said, "We need to go help the biggest, best players." At that moment, I became committed to- I wanted to define the crush pad. The crush pad was the institutions that were doing surgeries that were entrance into the market, were having poor outcomes because they didn't have decades of experience.
 
If we could center and drive attention to the big players, the centers of excellence like CHOP, which now is 11 centers across North America from L.A. to Toronto to New Orleans, if we could help build up their brand and their reputation by bringing cutting-edge research clinical trials to them, they would invest in us because it's in their best interest. And we as a community would crush the people that were having bad outcomes because they didn't have the volumes nor the expertise and perhaps were part of this game because of financial motivations only. That was a catalytic learning opportunity that was a paradigm shift in our journey.
 
Dan Sullivan: One of the things that I immediately grasped about what you were doing, because the Free Zone program in Strategic Coach is all based on collaboration, that you're doing so well as an individual entrepreneurial company that the money is taken care of. You're independent money-wise. But you come across another company that isn't even doing what you're doing, but they're in love with the same end user. In other words, what holds the collaboration together in the Free Zone is that when you look at the end user, they have a 360-degree world that they live in and they have many things that have to be solved. You're solving one of them, and somebody else is solving another one. You say, "Why don't we just put our best thinking, our best capabilities together?" We don't talk about money, we don't talk about ownership. We don't talk about who owns who. We simply said, "Let's take the existing capabilities and maximize their collaborative value to create a higher level capability that actually takes us from a single lab and now puts it in big networks that, once it becomes proven, you instantly have a distribution system."
 
Tim Nelson: A hundred percent. We don't have competition because we are doing something nobody else is doing. We've brought together an ecosystem that you can't create on your own. It requires decades of experience and expertise and all of that into one focused, aligned, committed mission, which is what we have. But what's also really interesting in terms of the model, and, Dan, you've helped me understand this in our discussions that I'm so grateful for is that because of the philanthropic starting point, we are essentially de-risking our product development at no cost of capital. We're not raising capital, we don't have capital cost associated with our product development because we're leveraging and building on the philanthropic capabilities of families and foundations.
 
As we get that scaled technology, nobody honestly thinks it's scalable, an autologous approach for cardiac regeneration. This is too expensive. One product for one patient, it's too expensive. The investment community would never make the investment at this stage. But when we drive the cost down of an autologous, meaning yourself, genetically identical heart manufacturing, this will be a superior product than an allogeneic product. When we get that scaled with philanthropic, committed partners, we'll have a product that nobody can ever compete with us because the cost of manufacturing and the distribution of this will allow us to continue to propagate and have the outcomes that we all aspire to have, the impact that we aspire to have and within a sustainable business model.
 
Dan Sullivan: One of the sub-themes of our two- or three-day conversation, Steve, I would keep asking him questions about what he was doing, and he says, "Well, what's a Strategic Coach thing?" I says, "What's your status at, your lab status?" He says, "We're a nonprofit." I said, "That's too bad because I can't let you into the Program." I said, "I just don't like the word nonprofit. It's bad for the environment, atmosphere in Strategic Coach." I said, "I've had two near-death experiences of nonprofit as an entrepreneur, so I feel this very, very emotionally." Anyway, we kept talking and I kept asking him questions to educate myself about what he was doing, but he kept saying, "How do I get into Strategic Coach?" We're going to reach the crucial point here, and I think in a few minutes. Steve, can you go back and look at your experience?
 
Because you've created essentially... And I told Steve this about four years ago. We have a summit every year of all of our Free Zone collaborators. Steve brought his team and they were sitting very, very close to me. I say, "Steve, I think what you've done is you've created the world's first global entrepreneurial R&D lab, the very first one." I said, "There's the particular medical breakthroughs that are being developed, but you're actually creating an entirely new organizational model here where you've brought all the innovators in very, very, very different specialties, but they have a kinship." They have that community that Steve talked about. They have this community that, "I'm doing what I love doing and you're doing what you love doing, but we have this kinship that we're all involved in the same activity." Could you reflect on that and bring the furthest development of your model, Steve, with where Tim is in his description of his journey?
 
Steve Krein: I mean, what we're doing in the most simple terms is what you're doing at scale. We're doing what you're doing for congenital heart disease at scale across moonshots. Interestingly enough, there's a lot of similarity to the ingredients that you have and why I picked up on your partnership with Todd and Karen, your partnership with Bob Shaddy. We find people and organizations, philanthropic, by the way, in particular, families and foundations that are aligned. There's a framing that I'm not sure how familiar you're with venture philanthropy, which blends what you were describing together because if you take only a philanthropic view of this, grants and other vehicles for decades have been funding research and innovation. The big gap, what I've learned is called the Valley of Death is where innovation never crosses over to become a commercializable, scalable company. What we've done over the last decade is built the bridge to help ideas and innovation cross over. Then what you discovered, I guess two days ago in your first Coach session is it said you're really an entrepreneur. How'd you describe it, "I'm an entrepreneur..." What'd you say, Tim?
 
Dan Sullivan: Who happens to have a specialty in creating cures for congenital heart disease.
 
Steve Krein: We've created this structure and strategic shortcuts to help the innovators become entrepreneurs that can scale and commercialize and break through. Actually, this, by the way, goes everything from not just the science part, but really more importantly where we focus, how do you raise capital at every stage? How do you find customers and partners? How do you deal with reimbursement and making money? The real part of this, which is who pays for it? There's a whole bunch of questions that you don't have to answer on the science side that you have to answer on the business side. What we're doing across this global army of entrepreneurs is helping them level up at every stage. I say we, but this community, like the Strategic Coach community or the Free Zone community, are all speaking with the same kind of language.
 
We have a lot of terminology and other words and things we use from the Health Transformer Mindset to other frameworks that really enable us to quickly get up to speed with each other. We do- You have monthly meetings with these 11 collaborators. Our entrepreneurs meet together in small groups every month modeled after YPO forums, which are groups of entrepreneurs getting together. Interestingly enough, these eight to 10 entrepreneurs that you meet with every month, month after month, talking about your last 30 days and your next 30 days and recalibrating and getting support that you can't get from your board, you can't get necessarily even from your investors or backers, can't get from your team is priceless. I mean, that's the ingredient that is about survivability and making sure that you stay alive and navigate. You've done an amazing job.
 
I mean, I'm incredibly inspired by how you've gotten here almost probably feeling your way around at every stage and trying to figure it out. But we're doing this at scale, and I think there's a lot of opportunities for us to collaborate. I think what you're doing, I'd start thinking about right away, how many other entrepreneurial ideas, innovations, and breakthroughs can plug into what you've built to magnify things you're not going to be doing? Going back to what Dan said about collaborative, everybody stays in their lane, but can they benefit from building an ecosystem of other startups and companies that you've laid the groundwork for, but together we can make sure that we can make the time run in parallel versus in sequence. What the moonshot metaphor we so quickly and often use is not about the big goal, like you stated. It's actually about collaboration and the idea that there were 400,000 people and 20,000 companies collaborating to land a man on the moon and bring him safely back as Dan so-
 
Dan Sullivan: The Russians didn't have that part of the mission. They wanted to put a man on the moon, but the whole point of bringing him back safely, that wasn't part of. And that's why the Americans did it first, because you had to build all sorts of safety factors into the... I mean, keeping the human being safe is actually the preponderance of the spending. It's not the rockets, it's not the shape of the rocket. But one thing I wanted to get here, and it's something that I feel passionately about, is that since the Program started, we just passed 33 years of the Program and we've had many offers. People say, "We could franchise this. We could take 10 of your best tools and we could just create hamburger patties, and you could have billions in the Program like this." And I've resisted. I mean, we're as pure today as the day we had our first workshop of six. Your workshop the other day, your first workshop in the Signature Program, is as pure as the first workshop we had.
 
It's just that we now have the experience of 22,000 entrepreneurs spending an average of at least three years getting some handle on their entrepreneurial skills. What I love about your model, and you have a name for that. I mentioned to you, you have to get the IP protection for this name, so I won't say it live. I told Keegan and Katie, I said, "This is a big one, and you better get a handle on this one." But it's a form of innovation that I think psychologically and emotionally goes against the venture capital model. I have sat in presentation after presentation over 10, 12 years in the high tech world, and it seems to me that they're saying, "Hey, you're really attractive. Why don't we have sex? Then, we'll figure out whether we want to have a relationship." I don't think that makes for good long-term marriages. I think the instant pouring in of venture capital almost dooms the original vision very, very quickly.
 
Steve Krein: I use the metaphor with marriage: getting married and then figuring out if you want to have a relationship. The interesting thing about that, though, and going back to your relationship, exploring how your vision aligns with Karen and Todd's both pain and emotional state and urgency and importance they had aligned with yours-
 
Dan Sullivan: And excitement. And excitement.
 
Steve Krein: And excitement. What you just described about venture capital and the rub in healthcare and health innovation is, every entrepreneur, and this is without a doubt, 100% of the entrepreneurs is one of our filters, they're impact aligned entrepreneurs and innovators that want and care deeply about the mission of their company. Quite frankly, if it was solved by somebody else, like you said, we just want someone to win. We don't care if it's me or them, whatever, we just don't want that next family to experience what my family did or experience what I'm experiencing. The category venture capital and private equity and most retail investing, if you think about how their mindset is financially motivated at any cost, it's just best return, don't lose money, don't forget not to lose money, whatever the Warren Buffett rules famously are. But in philanthropy, there's almost a heart in the decision. I know not always, some people just want to get a tax write-off.
 
Dan Sullivan: They want to go to the Spring Gala every year.
 
Steve Krein: But for those that are starting foundations, and we have this experience with the backer of our type 1 diabetes moonshot, it's a family that has two daughters with type 1 diabetes, and at the end of the day, anything short of a cure and improvement of lifestyle for those who already have it that can't, there is no cure or delaying the onset of it, it's like that's all it's about. They're able to put resources in the hundreds of millions of dollars a year towards research and towards innovation. What we're doing now with, in the type 1 diabetes world, is finding what you call philanthropy, we call philanthropically minded because they still can invest in a way that gives return back in their program-related investments.
 
There's a way to do it in big foundations as I'm sure you've discovered as well that doesn't forget that it's still about one statement you made along the way, which is follow the money. It would be nice if we can cure type 1 diabetes. That's the main goal, but there will be a lot of money if you do that. There is a double bottom line here in every initiative we get involved with. That double bottom line doesn't necessarily exist in philanthropy, and it doesn't exist in venture capital. It's this blend of the two. Finding that collaboration from the beginning and then building on it, I feel like you've built- I think of a target where in the middle you put your goal of congenital heart disease and then you wrapped around that a great family that cares deeply and great scientists and team.
 
Then you continue wrapping more collaborators and collaborators and collaborators around a wonderful, Unique Ability collaboration where everybody, whether it's the institutions, whether it's philanthropically minded people who still, to get a return after the impact is wonderful. But it's a really important set of things you've laid the groundwork for, especially for the next few decades if you think about the magnification of it. I want to go back to one question though, Tim. Are other companies like yours or other, let's just say, not your HeartWorks collaboration, but are there other innovations and startups and companies able to play in your ecosystem here to either help you or help magnify what you've discovered and what you're putting to work?
 
Dan Sullivan: Just what I said, this will be the wrap-up for episode two because we're almost ready to jump the money chasm because the money now comes very much into play here. It also answered Tim's question, how do I join Strategic Coach? Because it's the same thing, and it has to do with something else that has to enter the scene here for everything he's done, that he can maintain control of it and have just exactly the right partners who will then be contributing large amounts of money for the multiplication of the breakthrough around the world. Answer Steve's question, if you can remember it, because I interfered with it.
 
Tim Nelson: No, I mean, in a true Free Zone collaborative experience, it's amazing how many people can help. I have not met the person that can't help our mission move forward. It's awesome to have the conversation because what I've found with this, I call it impact philanthropy, that we move on the journey from a peer donation charity type of tax break to a growing sustainable business model, which requires program-related investments. It requires a way of getting capital dollars involved when the timing is right. We should talk about that transition of how we're thinking about it. But that what's really inspiring to me is that everybody has a Unique Ability that can help move this forward. Sometimes it doesn't cost you anything to be part of this team. Sometimes it's just the know-how, the connections, the conversation when you get inspired that this is a platform that we can all contribute to and make our contributions.
 
It's really, really remarkable to watch people be transformed from, "This is interesting. I'd like to help out. I can see the problem, but how can I help? Does my $5 help? Does my IT company help? Does my attorney expertise and IP technology help?" When you find that connection of where their Unique Ability can become catalytic, and you watch their face light up and how grateful you are for their help and assistance, and you can explain to them in detail what they did and how that impacted the team, they become part of the team.
 
Suddenly you see the language change from, "How do you do this?" to suddenly you start watching people use the language, "How do we do this? How do we lean in and do this?" When you start building that culture and creating opportunities for us all to work together, the pie gets so much bigger. It's not a smaller slice of the pie. The pie gets so much bigger. For me personally, my greatest joy is being able to show a charitable donation evolve into an investment mindset of what we're trying to accomplish and how powerful that is. I have yet to meet a committed, interesting, motivated person that can't be of value to this ecosystem. That's what's really remarkable about the Free Zone as you have described, and I want to learn more about that. We just casually described that as collaboration, a team of teams approach.
 
Steve Krein: There's a lot to pick up on there in the next episode, Dan. I want to dig into how you spell that out and make it easy for people to plug into it. I think going back to that Unique Ability metaphor for collaboration, that moon landing. Everybody had a different role in the moon landing in the '60s, and so you've given everybody a way to play a role, whether it be the tires on the lunar lander or the camera lenses or the food that goes on the ship or the space suits or-
 
Dan Sullivan: Or Tang and Velcro, which actually have done the biggest-
 
Steve Krein: Or vacuums. Tim, this is the gift that keeps on giving. Let's get a third episode in here, Dan. I appreciate, Dan, your direct hit on how Tim is already doing so many of the things that entrepreneurs struggle with doing, especially given that you haven't even crossed over yet. It sounds like you're just crossing over to the commercialization and scale side and having a for-profit part of this that becomes really the scale that you're talking about to make it accessible and democratizing the way to play in a ecosystem of innovators that really can take advantage of what you've just done in the last 12 years.