Why Entrepreneurs Must Be Clear On Their Own Perspectives

Shannon Waller: Hi, Shannon Waller here with Dan Sullivan on Inside Strategic Coach. Dan, I love letting people in on what we talk about. And one of the things that we were chatting about in a very recent conversation was the fact that you are kind of binary in your thinking. I'm super intrigued by it. I find it interesting. It's certainly something that has always made sense to me. But I thought today might be a great day to do a deeper dive into what binary thinking is, why it matters, how people can take advantage of it, and why you are so clear that this approach is the one that creates the most useful thinking and power for other people.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Well, binary, I mean, you can see it in electricity. You don't get a charge until you have a positive and a negative. So binary simply means that you've got opposites that are in relationship with each other. And I was thinking about it because of recent political events, geopolitical events. And we as a company came down totally on one side of the current situation in the Middle East. And people said, you know, a lot of people try to find sort of a neutral position in the middle when you're running a business. And I said, you know, I find the middle gets you nowhere. So I said, what I do is I always pick a side because you immediately begin learning an enormous amount about the side that you've chosen and why you've chosen. So you have to really go deep with the side.
 
But on the other hand, you have to really, really understand the other side. So it's not that I ignore the other side. Then I really start understanding. And my instincts are, you know, pretty good. I've put in a lot of decades. But people who sit in the middle and they say, well, on the one hand, and on the other hand, I find they just lose both their hands. If you try to be a neutral person, you just disappear as a person because you're not for anything. So, always immediately in any situation, I always say this is the one that I favor right off the bat and then people say, well why do you do that, and then I have to go deeper and I have to understand my thinking, and there's usually historical reasons for it.
So that's what I mean by binary but interestingly enough, our whole economy with the digital code, so much of our is binary. That's zero or one. There's no middle. And people said, "Yeah but when we get to quantum computing ... " And I said, "Well, I don't have a quantum computer, and I don't know anybody who does, but as long as I'm using this computer, it's binary." I think there's a certain relationship between how the major economic force in your world operates, and that operates on binaries. One, zero. Electricity is positive, negative. And it produces tension, it produces energy, it produces breakthroughs. But I think trying to be neutral, it doesn't teach you anything and it doesn't get you anywhere.
 
Shannon Waller: And I find that really fascinating. And another comment that you made was, "I strive to have a judgment about everything. If you don't take sides, you can't learn anything." Which I think is not a common approach, but you use it very strategically.
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, I'm not a common person.
 
Shannon Waller: True story.
 
Dan Sullivan: Nor are you.
 
Shannon Waller: No, I'm not.
 
Dan Sullivan: Our client base are not neutral people. They bet on themselves 100 percent and then they have to learn what the bet means and how you make the bet work. But I think that there's this sense that you should just be tolerant and nonjudgmental. And I have never met any human being who was nonjudgmental. I know a lot of people who say they're nonjudgmental, but mention something that doesn't correspond to what they believe, and they go like this and they immediately went binary. The problem is they think they're nonjudgmental. I judge everything. I mean, you only become successful by making increasingly more successful judgments.
 
Shannon Waller: Yeah. Yeah. On that point, Dan, and one of the things that I really love about so many of our tools is that you bring that thinking into the tools. And we're going to do another podcast on that shortly. It's like best and worst. And out of that creates the standards.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah.
 
Shannon Waller: Without analyzing your best experience, without analyzing your worst experience, you do not know your own standards, and applying those standards as part of having good judgment. So could you speak to that? Because I can think of all of the different exercise, including Impact Filter, where you pull out the best.
 
Dan Sullivan: The granddaddy or grandmother, whichever way you want, because, you know, I'll play both sides, anyway, is The Strategy Circle, which is 41 years old. And that's based on a formula that we discovered afterwards because we began to see that there was a formula that was a binary formula. You have a vision in the future, it has a deadline, it has a date, it's got measurable results, and immediately come up all the obstacles in the present that oppose you achieving your vision in the future. You've just created a binary, a complete binary.
 
But here's the thing, the obstacles are not negative; the obstacles are raw material. So the obstacles are the raw material that only came up because you had a particular, specific, measurable vision in the future with a deadline. And your brain says, oh, this is serious business. So what's of all the experience, everything you're doing right now, that doesn't support the future? And then you identify them and you write them all down on a form, and then you say, obstacle number one, now how do I transform this into a decision, into a communication, into an action that now takes me from the obstacle to the achievement?
 
Then you go down and you do that with all, and that's how it works. So when I'm confronted with a situation, I say, I'm just going to take this side. Now having committed to that side, I want that side to be right, then all the opposing views are obstacles and they're raw material. So I take the other person's position and I turn it into raw material to strengthen my position.
 
Shannon Waller: And you get really good at transforming those obstacles into strategies. Let's talk about another tool then. Let's talk about The Impact Filter because I find, you know, with The Impact Filter, there's whatever it is idea that you're thinking about, purpose, importance, ideal action. And then there's the best results if it goes the way that you want. And there's two versions of the worst result. And the one you always start with is if we don't do anything. Like, in other words, what's the opportunity cost of not taking action? And then I usually add, or if it doesn't go poorly. And that, talking about creating tension, it really does create tension. And then the success criteria for me, how I coach it is, what's going to ensure the best and prevent the worst? And it's just incredibly powerful to get clear on your own perspective, which is what our "thinking about our thinking" tools do. And it's so illustrative where there's no way you could get that unless you went to that best and worst extreme.
 
Dan Sullivan: My experience is your brain really likes this activity because it gets the brain real stuff to work with. It's not wimpy thinking. You know, you got to really have muscle to do this. But on the other hand, it makes me very interested in why the people who don't think my way, where that came from. So I ask them a lot of questions. "Well, how did you get on this line of thinking?" Well, I'm not arguing with them. I'm not arguing with them. I just want to say, "Well, I'm pretty clear why I chose this side. I just want to see if you're really clear about why you chose your side. I'm not quite getting it here." And it forces them to think, you know, or they say, I don't even want to talk about, well, they weren't worth talking to, you know, and a lot of people just aren't sure of their own thinking. They have very strong opinions about their thinking, but they have no real foundation or basis for their thinking. And I like beating up on people like that.
 
Shannon Waller: I don't experience you beating up on people, Dan.
 
Dan Sullivan: I'm not beating up in a physical way. And I just say, "Well, I don't think you're real clear why you think this way." You know, in politics I've been straight ticket one party since 1968 in the United States, and I'm straight ticket one party here in Canada because I'm a dual citizen. And people say, but what if there was a really great person on the other side? I still wouldn't vote for him, I says, because I don't like the ideas that have formed your policies, your programs. I just don't like the ideas. I don't think they work. I don't think you're immoral. I don't think you're unethical. I just think that what you're calling for really doesn't work. But it's forced me to really go into history to find out where their thought processes came from. So, you know, I'm… I'm not a Marxist. But I've read Marx. I've read everything that led up to Marx. I've read the thinkers that Marx... I mean, Marx wasn't an original. He was just aggregating five or six streams of thought. And he's a very good writer. I mean, Marx is a phenomenally good writer. You can understand why he was so persuasive. I mean, he fundamentally his thinking, I won't say it transformed the world, but it certainly changed the world. It disrupted the world.
 
But they haven't read anything that supports why they think. I've read all this stuff, you know, going back 400 years. I know where current left-wing thinking in the world... I'll use left as they use the word left, so I'll use the word left. And I said, yeah, yeah, I've read that. But that's not what it said. If you're going to bound your thinking on it, at least get right what they actually said. That person didn't say that. People interpret him that said that, but that's not what the original person. Marx has a very short book called The Communist Manifesto, 1848, I think, 1848. You can read it in two hours. I read it once a year in two hours. I really know it, and it just always says, you know, a lot of trouble in the world started with this book.
 
But the other thing is that I'm a lifetime sports fan of certain teams. I grew up Catholic. There's this whole notion of sin. You have to work off your sins before you go to heaven. But it serves me no purpose to give up on the team that I've supported all my lifetime because you can tell when they're getting better. You can tell when they seem to be turning the corner. And so I just always believe in the moment. There's two possibilities. Always take one side.
 
Shannon Waller: Mm hmm. And going back to your previous comment about Marx and Communist Manifesto, it makes you a very formidable opponent with which to debate because you have to know your own thinking and your history to come up against you. So, Dan, I find it to your point also so clarifying. When you choose a stand, you know, choose a side, and really understand the other side. I love that it has you be curious about how someone else is thinking about it. You make a judgment, but you're curious about why someone thinks the way that they do. What's their experience that led them to that? What have they read? How have they educated themselves? So there's actually a graciousness that goes with that.
 
Whereas someone who just holds an opinion without necessarily educating themselves or is more wishy-washy on it, they're less curious and less open to ideas and conversation and debate, which I find just a cool aspect of this. And then translating this to business and to life, for me, which vacations really worked for you, which didn't? Where was your best Free Day? What was your worst Free Day? What was your best team member? What was your worst? What was your best client? What was your worst? I mean, so many of our tools and how we help people improve, you know, how they approach things is based on exactly this way of operating. It's a very core element of Coach.
 
Dan Sullivan: You know, I've met people who I have an enormous amount in common with, except on voting day. And I have great conversations with them, but they're open minded and curious. I mean, come voting day, we don't vote the same way. And, you know, you don't get too involved in that discussion because it's like the third rail of the subway, you know. It leads to all sorts of other things. But one thing I believe is that every person is a complete universe of experience, of learning, and if you were able to get to the center of that person's universe, everything they do makes a great deal of sense.
 
So I'm curious why someone who I consider to be really intelligent, we have enormous amount of ability to cooperate and to communicate on a whole number of subjects, but on this one topic, and I said, oh, you know, and then you go back to their childhood, who they grew up with, who their parents were and everything. You begin to realize, you know, it makes total sense. It makes total sense to me why you believe that way. I still think it's wrong, but I understand exactly why you think this way and it makes total sense.
 
Shannon Waller: Yeah. And there's something about that. I mean, you always said this, Dan, people do things for their reasons, not ours. And you kind of get it after you have that approach.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. But I do know you can only have a conversation if you show respect for who the person is. I've been wrong on certain topics in my life, but it's only because I respect other people's position that I can reverse my own.
 
Shannon Waller: Mm, nice. But I'm going to say that again. It's only because I respect other people's opinions that I can reverse my own. So respect is a really key element of this. So Dan, just moving to how people can take practical action with this. So when people are kind of finding themselves in the middle or in a debate or any of these situations, or they're being cautious about making a judgment, what is your recommendation to people—to just choose a side and go for it, to look at their best and worst past experiences? Like, what's your favorite piece of advice for someone when they're being sort of confused?
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, pick one side and see what happens with your thinking. And then try out the other side and see what happens to your thinking. Which side is your best thinking? For example, I did a test once, and it was in a very short period of time, you had to create simplicity out of complexity. And you were given 30 or 40 different things to kind of say, well, what's the system that unifies this? And you were given five minutes to do this, and you had sensors on your head, and they wanted to watch your stress level, see what happened to your stress level, because you couldn't do it in five minutes.
 
And I had it all handled in a little bit over a minute. And the person said, "You created two categories here. How could you possibly create a category for this pile and this pile?" I said, "I like this one. I don't like that one." They said, "Yeah, but what's the category?" I said, "It's not an intellectual thing. It's just, I like this. I don't like this." And I would say sides and anything. I like this side. I don't like that side. So it's not intellectual. It's emotional.
 
Shannon Waller: OK, talk more about that. So it's not intellectual, it's emotional. So which one works better for you, feels better?
 
Dan Sullivan: Our emotions come before our thinking. I mean, we lead with emotion. Or I think you're more successful in life if you just size it up emotionally. "I just don't like this." I remember one extraordinarily transformative experience in my life, and it was my practice marriage. I was married for five years in the 1970s. And the day I got divorced, I realized I felt about her exactly the same way as the first day that I met her. I didn't like her. And then I talked myself out of it. I said, next time, stick with your first guess. And look, she's a great person. She's a great person. She's highly thought of. She's very admirable. She's a good person. I just didn't like her. And I had that down the first time I met her. And I had that down the day I divorced her. But in between, I had this confusion of my own thinking.
 
Shannon Waller: So that experience really solidified going with your first assessment. And there's so much evidence, Dan, about our first impressions and how much our nervous systems take in subconsciously, not consciously. And we override our instincts. There's tons of scientific studies about this.
 
Dan Sullivan: I think our emotions are actually incredibly highly packed experience of experience after experience, and this worked and that didn't work, and this experience. And when you feel something, all that wisdom is suddenly available, except you don't see it as wisdom. And I said, yeah, but what's the thinking here? I said, you don't pick one side out of thinking; you pick one side out of feeling.
 
Shannon Waller: And I think that's a very critical point. And I know from all of my work with Kolbe, and the whole Kolbe creative process starts with how you feel about something. You know, your striving instincts don't kick in unless you care. If you don't care, you're not applying any other... you're not applying your reason, you're not applying your instincts, you're not taking purposeful action, all of that. So 100 percent human beings are definitely motivated that way, but we tend to override it with intellect, which you did in your practice marriage situation, you talk yourself into something. And I think really going with this and then what you're saying is just pick a side and go with it and see what happens to your thinking. You're actually giving voice to that emotion in a way that you can then look at and examine, which is very powerful.
 
Dan Sullivan: And if I'm wrong, I'll reverse myself, but I'll know why I'm reversing myself. And it's not out of being acceptable or being agreeable. It's just bad guess, bad bet. Cut your losses. I tell you, people say, "You're American and you seem to be totally American in all your views. Why do you live in Canada?" And I said, because it gives me a binary between two places and it's built right into the opening statements that founded the two countries. The first one in the United States is that this is for the purpose of individual life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That's the U.S. Canada is, this country is founded for the purpose of peace, order, and good government. It's hard to contain those two thoughts in the same brain, but there's a tension between the two places.
 
Between the choice of the two, I vote for I'm an American, but it allows me to really understand Canada in the way that's deeper than most Canadians understand their own country and allows me to understand Americans in a way that most Americans understand their country because I have this tension. And they said, but would you ever move to the United States to live? And I said, well, we have a home for business purposes in the United States. But no, I'll always live here. And they said, why? And I said, because I like making my money where there's life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And I like living and spending my money where there's peace, order, and good government. Canada's like America's biggest gated community. You know, you have to check in the gate. You say, well, do you know somebody there? And you give them a name. OK, how long are you going to stay? Yeah. Do you have guns? Yes. You can't bring the guns into the country, you know, and this has got value. But if I was forced to choose—you had to live in one place—I'd go back to the United States.
 
Shannon Waller: Yeah, that's so fun, Dan. It's true.
 
Dan Sullivan: Who would you fight for? And I said, well, there's only one that really requires you to fight for.
 
Shannon Waller: True story. Awesome. Dan, thank you for breaking down this binary thinking. I know for me personally, the tools that you created out of it, which will be our next podcast, is something that's really helped me clarify my own thinking. But it's very fun to hear it from you and how you look at things in your own life experience. So thank you for sharing that.
 
Dan Sullivan: I'll give you one more reason for this is that my favorite musical composer of all time is Johann Sebastian Bach. And he lived from the 1600s to the 1700s, so right at the turn of that century. And he has a musical form which is called contrapuntal. And he creates one melody line, and then he creates another melody line that's different. And what emerges in the middle is an incredible melody line from the contrapuntal. So it's binary. He creates a binary. And he just writes the most gorgeous music. I mean, hands down, Bach gets played more in the world than any other composer in the history of the world, and that includes Taylor Swift. You know, there's more Bach in the world than there is Taylor Swift or any of the not so great. But what he does is he's mastered this binary tension that the actual melody line that really carries the whole thing is created by these two counter melody lines. And it creates great art. It creates great thing. And my feeling is all greatness in the world is created by the tension that's created by binaries.
 
Shannon Waller: I completely agree. And my example would be Rodin. If you study Rodin, there's always strength. The Burghers of Calais, for example, there are these strong men in chains with their heads down. But the strength and the outer part is very evident. And we find it.
 
Dan Sullivan: These are stone. They were created, you know, in the 1800s. This is stone. And that just has this tremendous tension to it. I've been to the museum in Paris and the story has enormous tension in it, you know.
 
Shannon Waller: And I think human beings find that fascinating. It's reflective of our own internal tension sometimes. And Rodin had a protege slash muse woman who created stunningly beautiful sculptures. Zero creative tension. I breezed through that room so fast because there was nothing of interest. It was pretty to look at, but what compelled me was to go back to Rodin. Like, The Thinker or any of the other ones. So I think that creative tension or that binary nature of things is something that is very resonant for us. And it is, to your point, what creates greatness is when you recognize that and acknowledge it and explore it.
 
Dan Sullivan: I'll give you a popular example, John Lennon and Paul McCartney. Very radical, different approach to music, the two of them. And as long as they were working together, they created the greatest popular music probably of the 20th century. The moment they went off on their own, they didn't have that tension. There was nothing that John Lennon did afterwards. Not like his Beatles stuff. Same thing with Paul McCartney. I've seen video concerts of Paul McCartney, and he has his stuff, and you know, it's cute. I would say he writes very cute stuff. Yeah, it's kind of really neat. And then they said, "Yesterday, play Yesterday." And "Yesterday" all of a sudden that tension. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. You know, and he's, it's just that tension. And they never had the tension once they separated.
 
Shannon Waller: That's a really great point. Well, Dan, I think we've given people lots to think about, which we always like to do in these conversations. So, thank you. I think this was a—what's the word—it's not an unusual approach, but a very essential approach that I think everyone can take value from. So, thank you.
 
Dan Sullivan: Great. Thank you.